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Old 14 Jan 2012, 09:44 (Ref:3011506)   #1
Copperbottom
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Spec of race boots

As from this year the MSA have stated that we (nat b) racing drivers have to wear fireproof race boots, I have done so for years but although Nomex lined my boots (Adidas Monza) don't have any spec labels will/could this be a problem at scrutineering?
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Old 14 Jan 2012, 10:43 (Ref:3011524)   #2
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Could be wrong but I think that has been defered until 2013.

Gloves only for single seaters and Boots next year.
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Old 14 Jan 2012, 13:07 (Ref:3011575)   #3
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Q 10.1 (c) flame resistant gloves and shoes mandatory

unless an update in MSA mag changed it after BB published?

(and pleae note flame resistant not 'fireproof' - don't lull yourself into false sense of security, the tests are for something like 19 seconds resistance!)
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Old 14 Jan 2012, 14:17 (Ref:3011584)   #4
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How do they define fire resistant? Should there be bs markings?
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Old 14 Jan 2012, 20:50 (Ref:3011693)   #5
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MGD you're mixing up your standards.

The MSA have painted themselves into a corner here. Flame resistant doesn't mean a great deal, or you could say it means a great many things, firstly there are any number of flame resistant standards. ISO6940, old ones like BS6249 Part 1 either index A or index B, en533, 534 and so on so the scrutineer SHOULD accept any of those but won't have heard of most of them and you'll get chucked out.

For Motorsport purposes, ISO6940 was adopted as the flame resistant fabric standard some years ago. So there are gloves and boots out there marked ISO6940 and they should be acceptable. Then there's the American SFI standard. Confused? So am I! Why didn't they just say FIA8856-20000 we know where we stand!

What MGD has confused is the performance of flame resistant fabrics in heat transfer tests for racing overalls, whereby many layers of fabric keep back the heat and prevent burns for around 19 seconds if you are lucky. Gloves and boots don't give you that luxury, they are just designed not to melt onto your hands or feet and will go out when the flame goes out.

So the scrutineer should be looking for a label that says ISO6940 on your gloves, or the latest FIA 8856-2000 or possibly SFI 3.5 I think. However, if you turn up with a pair of oven gloves on your feet with any EN number on them then the scrute must accept those as well, because the MSA has not seen fit to define either what flame resistant or boots are! If they had simply specified "boots to FIA standard 8856-2000" then the problem had gone away, because that is all laid down in the standard. Another stupid fudge, why didn't they ask us first?

Hope this helps. Any questions drop me a PM.

Last edited by midgetman; 14 Jan 2012 at 20:52. Reason: Even I got bored reading it
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Old 14 Jan 2012, 22:49 (Ref:3011736)   #6
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How do they define fire resistant? Should there be bs markings?
It's all in the Blue Book, why not just read Q10 then K9 and you will know as much as us... you can even read it online on the MSA website.
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 07:47 (Ref:3011801)   #7
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Actually David, the Blue Book is about as clear as mud. In fact there's me rattling on about ISO6940 and it's not even listed in this years K9 but even the big brands have gloves with ISO6940 labels in them. Scroll down to K14.3 and you'll see a description of the OLD FIA standard, it hasn't been updated to show 8856-2000 specs. And the descriptions are only advised, not mandatory. And it does mention ISO6940.

to add to the confusion, I had customers who had read K14 returning gloves because the 8856-2000 labels aren't mentioned in the regs!

To anyone looking at gloves and boots, I would say buy them with 8856-2000 and then there will be no problems at scrutineering, anywhere. They are not much more expensive and will last longer if looked after. They are better made and more protective. QED.
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 09:53 (Ref:3011827)   #8
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It's all in the Blue Book, why not just read Q10 then K9 and you will know as much as us... you can even read it online on the MSA website.
I HAVE read them which why I posted the question on here in the first place!

I was hoping for some informed input as to whether or not I had to waste money from this years' budget (1/2 an entry fee) buying something that I already have.
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 16:23 (Ref:3011953)   #9
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CB do your boots have a label saying ISO6940? if yes, then you're OK. If not, where do you get entries for £140 please?
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 18:22 (Ref:3011996)   #10
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..............To anyone looking at gloves and boots, I would say buy them with 8856-2000 and then there will be no problems at scrutineering, anywhere. They are not much more expensive and will last longer if looked after. They are better made and more protective. QED.
Precisely; would you put the cheapest oil in your race engine?
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 18:31 (Ref:3011999)   #11
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To anyone looking at gloves and boots, I would say buy them with 8856-2000 and then there will be no problems at scrutineering, anywhere. They are not much more expensive and will last longer if looked after. They are better made and more protective. QED.
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Precisely; would you put the cheapest oil in your race engine?
While I agree with Max that they aren't much dearer, I'm sceptical that they may have any advantage over ISO 6940, so David that's the usual crap about if it's more expensive it must be better. BTW I have a gallon of snake oil that's excellent for MGs would you like to buy some?
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 19:35 (Ref:3012014)   #12
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CB do your boots have a label saying ISO6940? if yes, then you're OK. If not, where do you get entries for £140 please?
I haven't found any boots for £70,more like £110 and we're not allowed to talk about the championship that I race in where average fees are £220
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 20:39 (Ref:3012035)   #13
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Max those replacement boots you did me a deal on last year and told me they were not FIA compliant, will they pass?
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Old 15 Jan 2012, 22:11 (Ref:3012086)   #14
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While I agree with Max that they aren't much dearer, I'm sceptical that they may have any advantage over ISO 6940, so David that's the usual crap about if it's more expensive it must be better. BTW I have a gallon of snake oil that's excellent for MGs would you like to buy some?
Tim you've missed my point entirely.
If two products are available, and one has a better specification than the other, and the better spec item is guaranteed to do the job better (in this example, to pass scrutineering with no problems anywhere in Europe), and is not much (significantly) more expensive, then I know which I buy.
I'm sure you've heard the saying 'buy cheap, buy twice'.
You may dispel your scepticism if you so wish by reading and comparing the published standards, they're not secret - although I'll be the first to admit neither are they light reading

PS - if I thought expensive = better then wouldn't I race with HSCC or Masters rather than CSCC or MGCC?
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 01:14 (Ref:3012139)   #15
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Boots for 70 on my web site. Good boots for 110. Al, no, I did tell you last year
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 01:21 (Ref:3012140)   #16
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Tim, David was accusing me of perpetuating a scam on that basis just last week when discussing race overalls so deep down he agrees with you!
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 08:16 (Ref:3012189)   #17
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Oh BTW my mistake, £75. And I meant to say "really" good ones for £110. Blame Tapatalk on a windy bus station for my bad writing.
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 10:13 (Ref:3012221)   #18
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Oh BTW my mistake, £75. And I meant to say "really" good ones for £110. Blame Tapatalk on a windy bus station for my bad writing.
what is a 'bus'?
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 10:21 (Ref:3012226)   #19
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Tim, David was accusing me of perpetuating a scam on that basis just last week when discussing race overalls so deep down he agrees with you!
! that requires amplification !
was just thinking if good quality French workman's blue overalls are 20 quid, snazzy mechanic's overalls from JJC are 80 quid, and FIA-legal race overalls are 300 quid, who in the supply chain is making the most profit given that I know it's not Midgetman!
Is it the patent-holder of the material?
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 12:35 (Ref:3012270)   #20
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what is a 'bus'?
Something pensioner mothers ride on at 0130 to get to Gatwick for a flight to the sun at 0545. The life of an over-70 these days!
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Old 16 Jan 2012, 16:15 (Ref:3012386)   #21
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Boots for 70 on my web site. Good boots for 110. Al, no, I did tell you last year
I know you did Max no gripes there, just wondered with the relaxation/poor wording then they may be OK, what about the original ones with Zakspeed on the side?
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Old 17 Jan 2012, 15:26 (Ref:3012899)   #22
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'Fraid not mate. No ISO6940 and no relaxation either!

You shouldn't threaten to retire, you know you don't want to anyway
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Old 21 Jan 2012, 20:38 (Ref:3015103)   #23
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Q 10.1 (c) flame resistant gloves and shoes mandatory

unless an update in MSA mag changed it after BB published?

(and pleae note flame resistant not 'fireproof' - don't lull yourself into false sense of security, the tests are for something like 19 seconds resistance!)
Just reading bits of the Blue book I received today.

In K 9.1.9(Page 162) Competitor safety it says "Strongly Advised to wear" etc etc.

I`m just trying to find a reason for not having to wear gloves(I just dont like them),although I have bought a pair this week!
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Old 22 Jan 2012, 10:28 (Ref:3015233)   #24
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Yes, confusingly the general recommendations are over written by the specific regulations for car racing. So you have to wear gloves!

Interesting you hate wearing them, I can't race without them! Each to their own.
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Old 22 Jan 2012, 18:24 (Ref:3015378)   #25
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banbury should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks anyway,looks like I`ll be wearing them then!
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