Penalty Discussion

[MJ_N_09]

Some penalties have come, and they are big. Teams involved are Penske, MWR, and NTS motorsports.

NASCAR Penalties announced for three teams: Penalties have been handed down to three NASCAR Sprint Cup Series teams following last Saturday's race at Texas Motor Speedway. The #56 car was found to have violated Sections 12-1 (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 12-4J (any determination by NASCAR officials that the race equipment used in the event does not conform to NASCAR rules); and 20-12.8.1B (the car failed to meet the minimum front car heights during post-race inspection) of the 2013 rule book.
As a result of this violation, crew chief Chad Johnston has been fined $25,000 and placed on NASCAR probation until June 5. The team has also been docked six championship driver (Martin Truex Jr.) and six championship owner (Michael Waltrip) points.
The #2 and #22 cars have also been penalized. Both cars were found to be in violation of Sections 12-1; 12-4J and 20-12 (all suspension systems and components must be approved by NASCAR. Prior to being used in competition, all suspension systems and components must be submitted, in a completed form/assembly, to the office of the NASCAR Competition Administrator for consideration of approval and approved by NASCAR. Each such part may thereafter be used until NASCAR determines that such part is no longer eligible. All suspension fasteners and mounting hardware must be made of solid magnetic steel. All front end and rear end suspension mounts with mounting hardware assembled must have single round mounting holes that are the correct size for the fastener being used. All front end and rear end suspension mounts and mounting hardware must not allow movement or realignment of any suspension component beyond normal rotation or suspension travel.)
As a result of this violation and as it pertains to the #2 car the following penalties have been assessed:
· Crew chief Paul Wolfe has been fined $100,000 and suspended from NASCAR until the completion of the next six NASCAR Sprint Cup Series championship points events (including the non-points Sprint All-Star Race) and placed on probation until Dec. 31.
· Car chief Jerry Kelley, team engineer Brian Wilson and team manager Travis Geisler (serves as team manager for both the #2 and #22 cars) have been suspended from NASCAR until the completion of the next six NASCAR Sprint Cup Series championship points events (including the non-points Sprint All-Star Race) and placed on probation until Dec. 31.
· The loss of 25 championship driver (Brad Keselowski) and 25 championship owner (Roger Penske) points.
As it pertains to the #22 car the following penalties have been assessed:
· Crew chief Todd Gordon has been fined $100,000 and suspended from NASCAR until the completion of the next six NASCAR Sprint Cup Series championship points events (including the non-points Sprint All-Star Race) and placed on probation until Dec. 31.
· Car chief Raymond Fox and team engineer Samuel Stanley have been suspended from NASCAR until the completion of the next six NASCAR Sprint Cup Series championship points events (including the non-points Sprint All-Star Race) and placed on probation until Dec. 31.
· The loss of 25 championship driver (Joey Logano) and 25 championship owner (Walt Czarnecki) points.(NASCAR)

This is a major topic of the week in the sport, as many believe that the penalties are inconsistent and in the case of Penske, too severe. The penalty against Truex's team was lighter. On the other hand, I feel that the penalties against Hornaday should have included a 1 race suspension. What do you all think?

[Tourer]

Wow!

Those ARE strong penalties. On the question of the penalties being too severe, I guess you'd need to know exactly what they've fitted to the cars without NASCAR signoff, how long they've been running it and why NASCAR see it as an issue of this magnitude. Could be that NASCAR are making an example of these guys to get a message to the rest of the field.

The MWR one is weird given that (according to information shown) the rules broken are the same as the Penske guys. I haven't paid a huge amount of attention to the back stories this year but does MWR get their gear from Penske? If that's the case, maybe they've been cut some slack for fitting a Penske component that MWR THOUGHT was NASCAR approved?

That's a fair few key people that Penske need to find for the next 6 races!

[HJJ]

Story earlier this week had the 48 team (who they were next to in the garage) tipping Nascar off on what they were doing with regards to the rear suspension.

[Cynic]

Wow, those are big penalties for Penske. It's a pity that NASCAR's website doesn't have the forums back up yet, I was looking forward to all the claims that Chad obviously has a better lawyer than Paul Wolfe does...

The Fox team thought it might have been something to do with the alignment of the rear axle. IIRC Hendrick were warned last year when their cars were visibly 'crabbing' more than anybody else's on the straights. Perhaps NASCAR intended that to act as a 'we're watching you' message to the field, and now that they've caught someone else they've bought the hammer down.

Championship wise I reckon this is going to hurt Brad big time losing three people from his team. Even in an organisation as big as Penske I'm sure they won't have ready-made replacements available unless they get their Nationwide teams doing double-duty.

[gomick]

That is big news - shall be interesting to see how Brad goes without his championship winning crew chief...
I missed what Hornaday got?

[fieldodreams79]

"must be approved by NASCAR" = NASCAR's BS workaround/excuse for penalizing people for years. Don't like it? Find somewhere else to race. Ask the Crawford Brothers and many, many others about that.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

On the other hand, I feel that the penalties against Hornaday should have included a 1 race suspension. What do you all think?

Originally Posted by gomick

I missed what Hornaday got?

Hornaday penalized for Rockingham incident: NASCAR Camping World Truck Series driver Ron Hornaday Jr. has been penalized by NASCAR following his involvement in an on-track incident last Sunday at Rockingham Speedway. Hornaday Jr., driver of the #9 truck, was found to have violated Section 12-1 (actions detrimental to stock car racing. Altercation with another competitor on the race track during a caution period) of the 2013 rule book. As a result of this violation, Hornaday Jr. has been fined $25,000, docked 25 championship driver points and placed on NASCAR probation until June 12.(NASCAR)(4-17-2013)

This is fitting as it is essentially his first strike. Cocks up again, like the other 2 drivers who were sat because consistently showed their asses on track, then sit him out.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Story earlier this week had the 48 team (who they were next to in the garage) tipping Nascar off on what they were doing with regards to the rear suspension.

Yeah. They snitched. There's no other way to describe it. Pretty cowardly if you ask me.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Yeah. They snitched. There's no other way to describe it. Pretty cowardly if you ask me.

I do not like Chad Knaus. That man I do not like at all. Shifty guy so I'm not surprised.

[JHamilton]

Does anyone know what they were actually doing (or trying to do)? I can't find anything technical, only the standard media fluff.

[PabloTeK]

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-med...of-kansas.html

Wow.

[Cynic]

I can understand the view that rules are there to be enforced, but this seems way ott. Can anyone really believe that one rod being 3g under is going to provide a significant advantage? If it was all eight I could understand. I won't be the slightest bit suprised if this gets overturned on appeal.

[chernaudi]

I wonder if the ACCUS and the FIA (the ACCUS is the main North American FIA branch) are laughing their rears off at NASCAR over these penalties. A $1 dollar bill weighs roughly 1 gram. If it's just one rod, then I can't see why the need for such a draconian penalty, aside from the NASCAR axiom of "don't touch the engine unless we approve it". But NASCAR themselves say that it's very likely a parts defect, but they're not changing the penalty outside of an appeal ruling.

This, of course, is why I don't like the current NASCAR regime in that everything's so spec and there's no allowance for issues of defects that happen in mass produced parts. Of course, had TRD weighed the part before hand, this probably wouldn't have happened and they could've tossed the defective part. But that's the issue with mass production nowadays--everything is almost the same, almost being the operative word.

[Paradise City]

It's a crazed penalty that'll threaten a revolt.

[JHamilton]

Why doesn't Nascar just supply everything like IROC and we won't have to worry about all of this? Do they not realize that crap makes them look like a bunch of idiots?

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Why doesn't Nascar just supply everything like IROC and we won't have to worry about all of this? Do they not realize that crap makes them look like a bunch of idiots?

Like this comment. NASCAR is already a De-facto IROC series anyways because it's so spec. I believe it's more a deal of where NASCR feels like they dumped a crap-load of money into the COT generations of cars and they don't want the teams to mess with them. Of course, the homolagation crap in sportscar racing is almost as bad, but at least there's room for creativity and innovation.

[MJ_N_09]

Wow, basically if ANYTHING in the engine fails inspection, you're ruined!!! That has to be the record for a fine in the history of Nascar. That's the equivalent of 200 points under the pre-2011 points system. A few years ago, one of the Front Row Motorsports cars had illegal bleeder valves and would have lost 300 (75 in this era) championship points, but was dropped to 150.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Why doesn't Nascar just supply everything like IROC and we won't have to worry about all of this? Do they not realize that crap makes them look like a bunch of idiots?

If they did that, it would be like Indycar when there was only one manufacturer. Most Nascar fans wouldn't watch because their brands wouldn't be represented.


I agree though. This has just gotten way too out of hand. The sanctioning body has lost any ounce of understanding and assumes the teams put the illegal or defective parts knowingly and intentionally.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

If they did that, it would be like Indycar when there was only one manufacturer. Most Nascar fans wouldn't watch because their brands wouldn't be represented.

Put some Chevy, Ford or Toyota decals on the car. Problem solved.

[chernaudi]

Let me put it this way about how I feel about NASCAR, and possibly auto racing in general after this year ends:

I'm not gonna write you a love song because you ask for it or need it. I'm gonna call a spade a spade, and NASCAR is the glorification of a lot that's wrong with modern auto racing with it's spec racing and stupid gimmicks. And sadly, F1 is headed that way, as so to is sportscar racing. Maybe 2014 might be the year I find something else to entertain myself.

[MJ_N_09]

NASCAR and Gibbs talk about #20 team penalties: NASCAR Vice President of Competition Robin Pemberton discussed NASCAR's penalties to the #20 team Friday afternoon:
PEMBERTON: As everyone knows there are a few things that are understood in the garage area that are big. When you talk about engines, you talk about tires, and you talk about fuel. That's a common thread that's been understood, and it's stood the test of time for the last 65 years. Don't mess with those areas, and the penalties are severe. But when you look in the case of an engine, the only time we really get a chance to look internally at an engine is post-race. Some of our most severe penalties over time have surrounded engine infractions.
Q. Why was the team penalized rather than the manufacturer?
PEMBERTON: That's tough too. Because when you look at, in their particular situation, we probably don't know all the details, but we do know they come from an outside vendor for the most part, and I don't know how you would go -- it's very difficult to go to an outside vendor and penalize them whether it's springs or shocks or parts that are bought and bolted on race cars. That's why in today's world we all know and relate to the fact that it stops at the crew chief and stops at the owner and stops at the organization that is here to compete.
PEMBERTON: It's a part that didn't meet spec. It's not a gray area. There are numbers in the books. If you look at numbers in the books and what's going on in the garage area and across our national series those numbers for a connecting rod have been in the book since around the time we went to a single-engine rule, which is probably 12 years ago. So you take that and the amount of engines and engine components in the garage area, and then every given weekend it's done right the vast majority of the time.(NASCAR)
AND #20 team owner Joe Gibbs also addressed the media Friday at Richmond:
Joe Gibbs: I want to say that we value our NASCAR partnership very much. We've been together, working together for 22 years and we value our relationship with them. Certainly, we do not want to be on the wrong side of any rules. That's our goal. I wanted to emphasize that. I want to make a point [that] we have a great partner in TRD (Toyota Racing Development). Over the six years we've been together at different times -- this is a big deal, a lot of things come up -- NASCAR's a big deal for us and a big deal for TRD. It's what we live. Through the process over these six years at different times we've stood behind them as we go through something -- in support and be there with them. At different times, they have been behind us. That's what good partners do. We think we have a great partnership with them and we're going to stand together and work our way through this and again try to handle it the right way. We believe that we are going to be together for a long time. I think everyone at this point has probably heard that in tearing down our motor after last week's win, one of the connecting rods was found to be light. That goes against the rules and we understand that. We know that there's going to be a penalty for that. What we're going to appeal is the severity of the penalties. In looking at that motor and where all the connecting rods were placed and the weight of all the connecting rods, when you have motor experts look at it basically what they would say is there is no advantage to having that one light rod in that motor. That's one thing that is very important to me is the intent here was not to get an unfair advantage in any way. That's very important to me. The other point that I would like to make is since we started out this year there has been 10 TRD motors torn down -- eight of them have been Joe Gibbs Racing motors. Nothing with those other motors has found to be wrong in those motors in anyway. Those motors were found to be legal there. I think basically that's what our appeal is going to be. We want to go forward and go through that process and what we'll be appealing will be the severe nature of the penalties."(Toyota Motorsports)(4-27-2013)

Also to the message before mine; F1 has been going that way since 2009 and IIRC, almost led to a breakaway series. As for sportscar racing, mostly the GT series classes, I don't see how they could possible spec those to be exactly alike.

[HJJ]

Penske loses it's appeal.

http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cu...-nascar-sprint

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Penske loses it's appeal.

http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cu...-nascar-sprint

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nascar...190913954.html

[JagtechOhio]

North Carolina calculus:

"Since 1999, 15 penalty cases have gone before NASCAR’s chief appellate officer. Of those 15 cases, nine were upheld, two reduced and one overturned."

[MJ_N_09]

What happened to the other 3?