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Old 11 Mar 2017, 13:13 (Ref:3717974)   #2501
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I understand the spec part argument. But there has to be a cut off, a line drawn where you say enough is enough. For whatever reason, people seem to be able to excuse terrible tyres. But if the same argument was being had about ECUs, people would be unhappy.

Lets say DPis all used a standard ECU, but that ECU was designed by an engineer who couldn't hold a pencil properly, and the result was that any car going over 180mph would misfire. The same argument applies of "Well it's a spec part, they all need to get used to it", but really, we'd be up in arms about it.

It's the same for the tyres IMO. It is a spec part. But if the spec part is so bad that not one person who uses it likes them, then something should be done. It DOES effect the racing - the issues at Daytona where the tyres were literally taking 10 laps to get heat into them gave us a lot more yellow flags than what we would have done, as even professionals struggled for half a stint, and ams were binning it all over the place.

When your spec part is so bad at doing the job it is meant to do, that we end up with worse racing, it needs looked at. I believe Conti crossed that line at Daytona. If the Sebring tyre is better, then great.
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 13:31 (Ref:3717980)   #2502
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Originally Posted by DeezPutz View Post
It's pretty obvious a control tire is holding the protoyotpe class back in IMSA. The dozens of prototype teams in WEC is evidence of this.
No one is saying it is not obvious. The question is, why does it matter?
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 16:26 (Ref:3717999)   #2503
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So the Cadillacs get slowed again. If they get it right this time (slow the fastest car down to the pace of the slower cars) who agrees that they shouldn't touch the BoP for said car. Or am I thinking wishfully? I just don't want to see the CONSTANT fiddling some of which is so knee jerk you already know which car will struggle
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 20:21 (Ref:3718050)   #2504
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
I understand the spec part argument. But there has to be a cut off, a line drawn where you say enough is enough. For whatever reason, people seem to be able to excuse terrible tyres. But if the same argument was being had about ECUs, people would be unhappy.

Lets say DPis all used a standard ECU, but that ECU was designed by an engineer who couldn't hold a pencil properly, and the result was that any car going over 180mph would misfire. The same argument applies of "Well it's a spec part, they all need to get used to it", but really, we'd be up in arms about it.

It's the same for the tyres IMO. It is a spec part. But if the spec part is so bad that not one person who uses it likes them, then something should be done. It DOES effect the racing - the issues at Daytona where the tyres were literally taking 10 laps to get heat into them gave us a lot more yellow flags than what we would have done, as even professionals struggled for half a stint, and ams were binning it all over the place.

When your spec part is so bad at doing the job it is meant to do, that we end up with worse racing, it needs looked at. I believe Conti crossed that line at Daytona. If the Sebring tyre is better, then great.
Based on the testing times, it doesn't look it's much better.
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 21:38 (Ref:3718063)   #2505
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Based on the testing times, it doesn't look it's much better.
It's not. It's a slightly different construction, slightly different compound. The tires used at Daytona were all from last year+ more. And, as race tires harden as they age... those things had to be an absolute nightmare to drive on.
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“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.”
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Old 11 Mar 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3718064)   #2506
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Maybe some here could start using ii;nda
I'm dying...
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“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.”
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Old 12 Mar 2017, 00:40 (Ref:3718090)   #2507
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So the Cadillacs get slowed again. If they get it right this time (slow the fastest car down to the pace of the slower cars) who agrees that they shouldn't touch the BoP for said car. Or am I thinking wishfully? I just don't want to see the CONSTANT fiddling some of which is so knee jerk you already know which car will struggle
If you look at the way the aero is configured for Sebring it's clear that they're going to fiddle with it from track to track regardless, the DPis aren't allowed to run anything resembling a Long Beach configuration next weekend. Track specific BoP is a nice excuse for the way IMSA seems to try to manipulate championship battles anyways.
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Old 12 Mar 2017, 01:34 (Ref:3718095)   #2508
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Track specific BoP is a nice excuse for the way IMSA seems to try to manipulate championship battles anyways.
Could also be the downfall of the series. Look what happened to Grand-Am's Rolex series.

**** off enough die-hards and your series will die hard.
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Old 15 Mar 2017, 13:57 (Ref:3718814)   #2509
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Looks like you too could be the owner of a Caddy dpi:

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/gm...customer-cars/

You get the money, Dallara will build you one, and GM approves. It will be interesting to see if we have any takers in the coming years. Mazda has said previously they want to sell customer cars but want to get the package to where it needs to be first. Gotta say, if i had to choose between the two, i might side with the dallara on this.....
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Old 15 Mar 2017, 14:38 (Ref:3718822)   #2510
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Looks like you too could be the owner of a Caddy dpi:

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/gm...customer-cars/

You get the money, Dallara will build you one, and GM approves. It will be interesting to see if we have any takers in the coming years. Mazda has said previously they want to sell customer cars but want to get the package to where it needs to be first. Gotta say, if i had to choose between the two, i might side with the dallara on this.....
Unrestricted, that might make a pretty good P1-P. It has definitely shown reliability out of the box.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 14:18 (Ref:3724172)   #2511
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http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ga...g-dpi-program/

Well, well, well.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 14:32 (Ref:3724175)   #2512
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Remind me again, for how long is the current ruleset set in stone, 5 years?

If Audi would join the fray in 2019 that will leave them 3 years under the current rules to 'harvest' their ROI - that sounds doable for their marketing geeks while keeping the beancounters satisfied.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 14:58 (Ref:3724181)   #2513
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The dpi formula seems to have struck the right chord. And it is sexy looking and sounding too. As long as bop doesn't get too silly it's gonna be a fun time the next few years.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 15:48 (Ref:3724190)   #2514
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The dpi formula seems to have struck the right chord. And it is sexy looking and sounding too. As long as bop doesn't get too silly it's gonna be a fun time the next few years.
The late part of the decade is good for sportscars it seems. The late 1960's had the Ford/Ferrari battles, the late 1980's was the peak of the GTP/Group C cars, The late 1990's was the peak of the Super GT1 cars, the late 2000's saw Audi vs Peugoet vs Porsche vs Acura. We could get to a real exciting period late in the 2010's now with DPI, GTE/GTLM, GTD/GT3 all looking to have great futures.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 17:18 (Ref:3724201)   #2515
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I'll believe it when I see it, just like with Audi Sport in F1. Not to mention that DPI doesn't allow hybrids or the new hydrogen hybrid/hydrogen fuel cell tech that Audi is supposedly working on.

Unless someone pays for most of the cost themselves, we'll probably see Audi back in LMP1 before we see them in DPI. Not unless this is a make work project for Audi Sport and Joest.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 17:31 (Ref:3724202)   #2516
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Everybody is evaluating everything. That's just the usual S365 nonsense. The quotes actually say "No, not now. Maybe in a few years, we'll see." which is the same thing every car manufacturer says about every series, and the headline from that is basically Audi are returning.

I like S365 but christ they like to cherry pick quotes for sensationalism.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 17:34 (Ref:3724203)   #2517
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I'll believe it when I see it, just like with Audi Sport in F1. Not to mention that DPI doesn't allow hybrids or the new hydrogen hybrid/hydrogen fuel cell tech that Audi is supposedly working on.

Unless someone pays for most of the cost themselves, we'll probably see Audi back in LMP1 before we see them in DPI. Not unless this is a make work project for Audi Sport and Joest.
I don't think IMSA at any point has said they do not want to allow alternative technologies in IMSA P, especially after the hard split with the ACO concerning entries at Le Mans. As long as a factory uses one of the 4 chassis and are content with being performance balanced and can hit a performance point, I do not see why they would not allow it.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 18:53 (Ref:3724217)   #2518
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They won't allow it because of the very reason why DPI is a BOP formula, so GM, Nissan and Mazda can get away with spending as little money as possible whilst running semi-factory teams. If Audi come in with a full factory squad and with hybrid tech, GM especially will probably curse and moan up a storm. Same if Toyota or Porsche decided to come in under similar circumstances.

Not to mention that if it was a full factory effort, Audi would want their own bespoke chassis, which is needed for a hybrid system, let alone a hydrogen fuel cell. None of the current LMP2 spec tubs that are also used in DPI allow for that equipment.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 19:12 (Ref:3724223)   #2519
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They'll just whack the GT3 V10 into the Dallara and stylize the bodywork and send it.

DPi is a silly cheap way to have a manufacture representation for marketing purposes.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 20:13 (Ref:3724228)   #2520
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Marketing or not, if Audi wanted to market their V10 engines or the R8, they'd race they R8, which they do.

To Audi Sport, a prototype is a prototype, IE, cutting edge tech. The current LMP2s are no more advanced than the over decade-in-a-half old R8 LMP900, and, in some ways, less advanced (stock block engines mainly).

But then again, Audi Sport bolted from the WEC in favor of Formula E in part for cheap marketing. However, it's also a make-work project until probably their 2020 LMP1 return, if the rules suit what they want to achieve, cough, hydrogen fuel cell or hydrogen hybrid, cough.

We have to remember that all Audi Sport LMP1 drivers are still under contract to Audi Sport/VAG (hence Audi's unwillingness to farm them out to Toyota), and almost all Audi Sport LMP1 personnel are still connected to Audi or Audi Sport. If they were to drop completely off the prototype, namely LMP1, radar, a lot of people would've just been layed off. And Audi aren't keeping these guys around just out of the kindness of their corporate heart...
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 20:31 (Ref:3724231)   #2521
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Everybody is evaluating everything. That's just the usual S365 nonsense. The quotes actually say "No, not now. Maybe in a few years, we'll see." which is the same thing every car manufacturer says about every series, and the headline from that is basically Audi are returning.
Exactly. Nearly every manufacturer with a GT3 car(and even a couple that don't) has "evaluated" DPi at least a little bit. HEck, a pretty big deal was amde out of Bentley and Alfa Romeo "evaluating" DPi, but those evaluations have ultimately gone nowhere.

As far as I'm concerned, a manufacturer "evaluating" something is not particularly newsworthy. Audi has probably even "evaluated" NASCAR at some point in their motorsport program's history - doesn't mean they ever seriously were considering entering.

When they announce(or a reliable someone leaks) that they're ACTIVELY working on a program, THAT'S intriguing information.

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DPi is a silly cheap way to have a manufacture representation for marketing purposes.
You've hit the nail on the head for why so many manufacturers have undertaken an evaluation of DPi. But low cost isn't automatically attractive - if it was, we'd have probably have the GT3 manufacturers backing DPi programs.

On the flip side, this same cheapness is what makes ESM-style programs possible. I think going forward, most new DPi programs will effectively be glorified privateer entries.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 6 Apr 2017 at 20:39.
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Old 6 Apr 2017, 23:39 (Ref:3724248)   #2522
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Yeah I think this story deserves about as much credibility as the Peugeot looking at P1 rumors. While it would be cool, i'm not holding my breath.
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Old 7 Apr 2017, 10:59 (Ref:3724316)   #2523
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When Audi announce a DPi program, then I'll get excited. I'm not getting my hopes and excitement up based on a misleading headline.
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Old 7 Apr 2017, 12:06 (Ref:3724332)   #2524
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When Audi announce a DPi program, then I'll get excited. I'm not getting my hopes and excitement up based on a misleading headline.
Personally I would love to see it happen, Audi have several engine platforms which they could throw in at a moments notice and easy be ready for 2018:

GT3 based 5.2L V10 - 570bhp....probably a bit heavy, but the correct capacity for sure

DTM based 4.0L V8 - 500hp.....probably ideal, but lacking capacity compared to Caddys, but its ready

Or just throwing it out there, it would need to have Technology behind it for Audi to compete, so as a wild card I would say Audis new I5 cylinder 2.5L turbo.....it would sound truly epic....and bring back days of the Audi-IMSA cars driven by Walter-Stroll.....the sound, oh the sound.....I would crawl over broken glass to hear that motor - proper race motor.

turn the volume up and listen to this, start from about 2 minutes in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOkeGOJ_dHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjiM-yIdYic
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Old 7 Apr 2017, 13:46 (Ref:3724347)   #2525
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Personally I would love to see it happen, Audi have several engine platforms which they could throw in at a moments notice and easy be ready for 2018:

GT3 based 5.2L V10 - 570bhp....probably a bit heavy, but the correct capacity for sure

DTM based 4.0L V8 - 500hp.....probably ideal, but lacking capacity compared to Caddys, but its ready

Or just throwing it out there, it would need to have Technology behind it for Audi to compete, so as a wild card I would say Audis new I5 cylinder 2.5L turbo.....it would sound truly epic....and bring back days of the Audi-IMSA cars driven by Walter-Stroll.....the sound, oh the sound.....I would crawl over broken glass to hear that motor - proper race motor.

turn the volume up and listen to this, start from about 2 minutes in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOkeGOJ_dHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjiM-yIdYic
Why does this continue to be brought up? Outside of the P1 car, nothing they did racing-wise has been done to promote tech. GT3, TT-S Cup, DTM, Rallycross, TCR, etc. None of those things showcase ground-breaking tech or the want to push forward. Hell, Audi may just want to do something normal and inexpensive for once.
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