Audi LMP1 Discussion

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Marshall said after LM that the R15 had grip problems in slow corners, and it seems that Audi know that if the tires are built for the job, that it can fix a lot of that issue on the R15, and that if anything, it should work better on the R18, as its designed for the wider tires from the outset.

I am not sure thatyou should blindly trust everything Marshall writes. For instance, in http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-the-r15-plus/ he claimed that the front of the original R15 was causing problems and the rear airflow worked really well. However, according to Mike (see http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch10.html) the situation was the complete reverse: the rear channel concept caused too much drag and the front aero was never a problem.

Currently Marshall is the only one claiming the R15++ will feature wider front tyres. I will wait a bit until it is confirmed.

[chernaudi]

What else can Audi do to the R15 to make it worth racing, when it as of now has only won 1/3 of the races entered (3 of 9, though it could've been more if Audi had done things differently or had better luck)?

It's easy to believe that Audi would run wider tires on the R15, for if nothing else to gain info to benefit the R18. And the grip problems arise from mechanical grip, especially since the twin deck front diffuser has been dispensed with, which takes away some of the areo grip that perhaps in the past made up for it. And with the R15's wheel lock clearence bulges on the front fenders are detachable, that provides more fuel for the fire. And we have to add in the fact that sometimes the fender bulges seemed to be a bit wider than necessary for 13'' tires and 13.5x18'' wheels. Of course, it was Mike who started that rumor with the R15 test car at Sebring, and I'd like to hear his theories on it.

Of course, Dagys had heard the R15 "++" rumor as well, and commented on it in his Zhuhai wrap-up in the weekly sportscar blog on Speed.com, but didn't comment any further aside from the fact that the updated R15 will test alongside the R18, and probably will run Sebring. Maybe I should ask him about it, but there's only so much these writers are allowed to tell, at least on the record

[CTD]

I agree on so much as using the R15+ as a test car/mule for the R18.
But i disagree on the possibility that Audi will use it on Sebring!
No matter how much Audi change the R15+, it will still either get restrictions (if they continue with the V10), or wont be able to match the new purpose build "Lmp2" Lmp1's. Therefor Audi will lose Sebring, unless all the Peugeots break, which i don't see happening. And if Audi is standing with a, lets say 70% chance of losing, then why spend your money on that race, when the money could be used to finish and improve the R18!
I'm pretty sure the R15+ is dead and retired from all official races.

[Tim the Grey]

Dr.Ulrich would beg to differ, it seems?
http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...nID=3GQKNB3LSF

R15+ with small restrictors at Sebring.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Dr.Ulrich would beg to differ, it seems?
http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...nID=3GQKNB3LSF

R15+ with small restrictors at Sebring.

Can't open the link unfortunately (can't afford the subscription ).
But does Dr. Ullrich confirm a R15 on Sebring?

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by CTD

Can't open the link unfortunately (can't afford the subscription ).
But does Dr. Ullrich confirm a R15 on Sebring?

Yes please share the info!

[chernaudi]

Seems to be the case as Tim has posted, but not all of use have accounts on DSC.

But then again, the only reason I've brought the R15 up in this discussion is that it's being used as an R18 test bed and will continue to be raced while the R18 is being developed.

As for the R18, I'd expect both the R18 and the R15 to be fielded at the Sebring ALMS test and Audi Sport's own tests at Sebring. And I still wouldn't be surprised to see the R15 run wide front tires to try and resolve it's front mechanical grip issues and to test the idea for the Audi R18.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course, Dagys had heard the R15 "++" rumor as well, and commented on it in his Zhuhai wrap-up in the weekly sportscar blog on Speed.com, but didn't comment any further aside from the fact that the updated R15 will test alongside the R18, and probably will run Sebring. Maybe I should ask him about it, but there's only so much these writers are allowed to tell, at least on the record

Sorry but in http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...portscars-119/ there is no mention whatsoever of a R15++. It just says "a version of the R15+".

I find it hard to believe that Audi will make yet another version of the R15 for only 1 race. Wider front tyres would mean that they have do redo the front aero and suspension geometry...

So I think Audi will just run the existing R15+ with whatever extra restrictions the ACO imposes (extra weight, smaller restrictor)...

[Tim the Grey]

So it's an R15++ which is an R18 front end set up... If Pug can do it, why not Audi?
They have R15 baseline, so can use R18 front end data to compare, yes?

[chernaudi]

Gwyllion, I think that you're forgetting that the R15 has the wheel lock clearance bulges detatchable, and are held to the nose box and fenders with screws. And if Audi has to modify the front diffuser, Audi may have to do that anyways, given the issues that they had with the diffuser breaking off the cars and damaging the suspension and floor so bad that Audi had to re-tub a car twice because of the diffuser breaking out suspension mount points at PLM. If Audi is going to use a new carbon diffuser, may as well optimize it for the wider tires, which should again help Audi with the R18.

That also says to me that the R18 may not be that different than the R15 up front, and may use a similar diffuser to the R15/ARX-02 mounted on a more cleaned up nose box and a similar tub/suspension set up, but optimized for more front grip to get the most out of the tires.

And it should be remembered that the updated R15 was also inteneded for the ALMS, but that's unlikely now unless something big happens soon, though Audi didn't announce that they would do the full '08 ALMS season until Sebring race week.

I wonder if the DSC article has any details about what the modifications will be aside from the smaller air restrictors.

[gwyllion]

According to http://www.speedweek.de/LMS/news/162...-Dezember.html the R18 will probably be a coupe with a 2 liter turbo engine.

[pdxracefan]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.speedweek.de/LMS/news/162...-Dezember.html the R18 will probably be a coupe with a 2 liter turbo engine.

That is a serious halt, and about-face.

[chernaudi]

The article confrims that the R15 isn't done racing (which Audi themselves have confirmed that), but the move to a 2 liter straight four on the R18 may be misinformation/bull because of how much Audi has invested in their diesel engines, though that my provide fuel for fire for the V6 engine. Also, most S4 engines are production based, and Audi has no mass-produced aluminum block, oversquare inline fours, unless they want to develop on from scratch.

But there is a caveat in my mind about the diesel engine. Audi in reality built the R10 for two reasons--be the first to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans with a diesel engine, and to market their diesel technology to the North American audience with their ALMS involvment. That has done it's job--Audi sells every Q7 SUV they import partly on the back of the diesel engine it's available with, and has caused a resurgence in Audi A3 hatchback sales in NA.

With Audi having no plans to run in the ALMS--which I think may at least in part have something to do with IMSA having a hang-up with their TV deal that may've spooked Audi of America and even Audi AG and Audi Sport--there's no huge incentive to run the diesel engines, espcially if the regs have truly equalized things, espeically if the R18 is to run KERS. And the ALMS deal would've consisted of running the updated wide tired R15 anyways.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, most S4 engines are production based, and Audi has no mass-produced aluminum block, oversquare inline fours, unless they want to develop on from scratch.

Independent of which configuration Audi chooses, the engine will always be a purpose built race engine. In fact, Audi can just use half of the Bentley 4.0 V8 TFSI.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.speedweek.de/LMS/news/162...-Dezember.html the R18 will probably be a coupe with a 2 liter turbo engine.

Dr. Ullrich has always been a supporter/promoter of the Global Race Engine, so this could be along those lines perhaps.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by joeb

Dr. Ullrich has always been a supporter/promoter of the Global Race Engine, so this could be along those lines perhaps.

Isn't the World Engine a 1,5?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by CTD

Isn't the World Engine a 1,5?

I thought the idea was to use the same basic architecture that could be scaled up/down added turbos and hybrids and what not for the various series using the design.

[gustavobamba]

So, the last Rumor said Audi R18 will be a coupé 2.0 turbo gasoline with KERS???
Is that so??? why did they leave the diesel engine???

[gwyllion]

Other rumors still suggest a 3.7 V6 TDI engine. For instance:

In the same breath, we've further "confirmed" the Audi is to be a "compact" 3.7 liter diesel V6. Of course this was the rumor back in February (2.17.10), so could this simply be reverberations of that item from 9 months ago?

source: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsnov10.html

The word on the street is that Audi are evaluating a closed diesel car (R18) with some form of KERS. More surprisingly Peugeot is also looking at KERS but this time with a petrol driven engine

source: http://speedhunters.com/archive/2010...lane-view.aspx

Anyway, a petrol engine will be lighter and it probably requires less cooling, which is good for the aero (less drag). Perhaps more importantly, according to Baretzky a 4 cilinder engine gives more room for (future) energy recovery systems.

Small engines allow us to combine a lot of energy recovery systems. If you want to look at all the efficiency components you want to incorporate in the future, like waste energy recovery systems from the exhaust or the cooling system, then you need a little bit of space on the left and rightside of the engine. A four-cylinder gives you that space but a vee engine is the wrong thing to have because you are so limited in space. You have an exhaust system on both the left and rightside and you also have to double all the energy recovery systems which makes it very heavy, very complicated and very inefficient. So it's better to have the hot side on one side of the engine and the cool side on the other side so you can arrange all these things accordingly. That's the opportunity with the four-cylinder.

source: http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no257.html

[manthey]

on the latest issue of italian magazine Automobilismo there is a portrait-interview with Dindo Capello

The question is:where is moving Audi? His answer

"There is a lot of talk about hybrid tech,but actually Audi is not interessed to follow this way and I think the diesel will soon also be set aside for new projects that are at studio. For 2011 there will be a totally new machine, the R18, which besides having the roof will also have an lower engine capacity and I'm excited to be able to live in what will surely be my last year at this level, the handover between the r15 and r18"

[gwyllion]

Another confirmation that the R18 will be a coupe.

Of course, the R18 engine will have a lower capacity: 2.0, 3.4 or 3.7 is less than 5.5

[MihokS5]

Im glad to know that it is a coupe for sure and am very curious as to what Audi may be planning with this car. Dindo made it sound like they are not going diesel or hybrid and have something entirely different...

[JAG]

If it's a 2.0T could it be 5 cylinder?

Audi's road cars are moving away from big V8's towards lighter models and small turbo engines.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by manthey

"There is a lot of talk about hybrid tech,but actually Audi is not interessed to follow this way and I think the diesel will soon also be set aside for new projects that are at studio. For 2011 there will be a totally new machine, the R18, which besides having the roof will also have an lower engine capacity and I'm excited to be able to live in what will surely be my last year at this level, the handover between the r15 and r18"

The R18 is surely a Diesel as he states that diesel will soon be set aside (ei. not in the R18). But will Audi go electric or pure petrol again (or ethanol)?.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by CTD

The R18 is surely a Diesel as he states that diesel will soon be set aside (ei. not in the R18). But will Audi go electric or pure petrol again (or ethanol)?.

Ah good point with the R18 being Diesel.

I think Audi will go the electric route since that is where the production road cars seem to be headed