[DTM] DTM 2016

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Ocon has been quoted as saying he'd rather do DTM than GP2, which is interesting in a number of ways.

He's been saying that for a little while now, ever since the Manor-Mercedes deal was announced and it looked like Wehrlein would switch to F1.
Now it looks like Wehrlein is sticking around in the DTM, who would Ocon replace?

[Rf1 Fan]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

He's been saying that for a little while now, ever since the Manor-Mercedes deal was announced and it looked like Wehrlein would switch to F1.
Now it looks like Wehrlein is sticking around in the DTM, who would Ocon replace?

Lucas Auer, as Ocon is now a flully fledged Mercedes F1 driver he should get priority imo.

It is a bit harsh for Auer, but i would choose Ocon anytime.

[Rf1 Fan]

According to Ocon , the Mercedes decision may drag until mid-february.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Honestly, would it be better if ITR close DTM for good a make an open-wheel racing series for those big 3 German manufacturers to groom their drivers.

I don't think a touring cars serie will ever become really popular with the general audience, imo a open wheel serie (a la Super formula/formula nippon) has a much bigger chance of becoming popular. So you might be onto something here.


A bit more radical idea from my side to increase viewership & 'popularity' would be to have the races during the evening. I don't know about you guys, but myself and my friends who have an interest in motorracing will not stay at home during saturday or sunday afternoon to watch DTM on the tv. However if it's on during the evening then i am likely to watch it. (This can also be seen with tv ratings for F1 GP's in canada or Brasil, the ratings for these gp's are generally a bit better in the Netherlands compared to others since it's starts on sundayevening).

Originally Posted by NaBuru38

I've said it before. DTM is missing rounds in UK, France, Italy, Spain and Belgium, which are the 2nd-6th largest car sales markets in Europe. They should visit Spa-Francorchamps, Donington Park, Le Mans and Mugello, for example.

I would imagine that Belgium is quite similar to the Netherlands or Austria, so i don't think the OEM's would gain much by dropping one of these races for a race in Belgium.

Dropping Zandvoort, Austria and 1 of the 2 Hockenheimring races for races in the UK, France, Spain and italy would make sense imo. In addition, it should be fairly easy to get tv coverage on a network in these countries if the local branches commit some of their advertising budget to commercials during those broadcasts (Mercedes and BMW spend combined over GBP 50 million on advertising in the UK alone in 2013).

[Speed-King]

I don't think a touring cars serie will ever become really popular with the general audience, imo a open wheel serie (a la Super formula/formula nippon) has a much bigger chance of becoming popular. So you might be onto something here.

Totally disagree. Tin-tops have been the kings of European national racing since forever. I can't think of a single national open wheel series that ever became more than just a feeder to F1.

Now, DTM are pretty bad as far as tin-tops are concerned, but I see absolutely no chance for a successful switch to formula-style cars. (Not the least because of how big Audi and BMW seem to be on road-relevance).

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Totally disagree. Tin-tops have been the kings of European national racing since forever. I can't think of a single national open wheel series that ever became more than just a feeder to F1.

Now, DTM are pretty bad as far as tin-tops are concerned, but I see absolutely no chance for a successful switch to formula-style cars. (Not the least because of how big Audi and BMW seem to be on road-relevance).

Yes they have been kings since forever. And have had massive financial support from OEM's. And how many have become popular with the general audience (which was my point)?

The closest two are DTM and BTCC, and i believe BTCC is the only one that is really ''succesfull' on its own power. DTM to me is just the result of the 3 oems throwing massive money in it.

I fully believe if these 3 would throw the same kind of money and promotion on a high powered open wheel serie (kind of like super formula or GP2) that this would get much higher attention.

Having said that, your last sentence is indeed true, i don't believe for a second that it will ever chance to a formula class because the oems don't want that.

[FIRE]

What GT3 racing is now was touring car racing in '70s, '80s and '90s.

[FIRE]

New engines delayed until 2019:
http://www.touringcartimes.com/2016/...ed-until-2019/

[BSchneiderFan]

I'm starting to worry that Class 1 will never appear.

[kurski]

When complete, the Kymi Ring's FIM Grade A certification will be accompanied by Grade 2 on the FIA's motorsport scale. Car racing, including championships such as the DTM and World Touring Cars, is also on the venue's radar.

Originally Posted by Autosport.com

The [Finnish] car federation has had some serious talks with the FIA and to other promoters," Pohjola confirmed.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I'm starting to worry that Class 1 will never appear.

I've used to think about it too, as I was a huge DTM fan when I first came to 10ths. But every year ITR did something, that knocked at the doors of sense heavily. Today it's not independent enough, there's not much sports in it and the level of self-admiration (hey, look at us, we are the best "touring" championship in the known Universe) multiplied by F1 mimicry in the worst possible way (why on earth are Germans so nuts about F1?) - everything prevents from organizing Klass1 = DTM + Super GT + Trans Am + smth in South Africa as it was in old good days.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helgi

Klass1 = DTM + Super GT + Trans Am + smth in South Africa as it was in old good days.

Those good old days never existed. Trans-Am was already a tube-chassis series when DTM first came onto the scene in 1984, and the South African cars were also always a lot more radical then what you could do in Group A.

[MagVanisher]

@helgi
I have the same feeling as you are. Honestly, it's time for DTM to close its doors.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by helgi

(why on earth are Germans so nuts about F1?)

One reason: Michael Schumacher. Although F1 is also declining in popularity in Germany. Not only was the attendance of the German GP in freefall, TV ratings were also falling in 2015.

Well, the hopes I and perhaps "we" had in 2011 that DTM would finally improve...well, they haven't come true. While the level of talent in this series has certainly been raised when compared to 2009, everything else has been horribly managed. Also, what use do young drivers from single-seater feeder series have, when they're not marketed at all? Not to mention that we've had the third German champion in a row and yet only Pascal Wehrlein is slowly getting some recogniton among mainstream German racing fans (Which is obviously due to his ties to the Mercedes F1 team). But as for people like Rockenfeller or Wittmann? No chance. Time and time again I've mentioned that back in the 90's, drivers like Schneider, Stuck, Ludwig and perhaps Biela and Winkelhock were at least fairly well known at a time, where Michael Schumacher caused a real racing boom in Germany.
I don't know about other countries, but apart from Football, every type of sports in Germany is destined to blow up like a bubble, only to burst. Take tennis: Boris Becker and Steffi Graf caused a tennis boom in Germany, but once both retired, tennis coverage in the German media went way down. In a sense, the same also happens to F1 at the moment, despite the fact that we still have two top drivers, as well as a German manufacturer dominating the series. I guess the German mainstream sporting fans are tired and saturated by F1. But a declining interest in F1 doesn't spell good things for DTM and such. In my opinion, mainstream interest in other forms of racing in Germany only comes alongside a high interest in F1. But when people move away from F1, they move entirely away from racing.
But in my opinion, it's not neccesarily such a bad thing: The German racing scene can perhaps consolidate itself, rebuild (With the ADAC GT Masters, the new TCR Series and the DTC, as well as VLN, there a more than solid foundation) and recharge forward in a couple of years. But the first step has to be to closedown of DTM, because that series takes up too many resources: Too many sponsors, too much public interest (even though it's falling), too many fans. When the DTM doesn't take any of these away, other series can surely make good use of it.

[Speed-King]

Yet there is no indication whatsoever that DTM will fall...

[Rf1 Fan]

Originally Posted by DS"

One reason: Michael Schumacher. Although F1 is also declining in popularity in Germany. Not only was the attendance of the German GP in freefall, TV ratings were also falling in 2015.

Well, the hopes I and perhaps "we" had in 2011 that DTM would finally improve...well, they haven't come true. While the level of talent in this series has certainly been raised when compared to 2009, everything else has been horribly managed. Also, what use do young drivers from single-seater feeder series have, when they're not marketed at all? Not to mention that we've had the third German champion in a row and yet only Pascal Wehrlein is slowly getting some recogniton among mainstream German racing fans (Which is obviously due to his ties to the Mercedes F1 team). But as for people like Rockenfeller or Wittmann? No chance. Time and time again I've mentioned that back in the 90's, drivers like Schneider, Stuck, Ludwig and perhaps Biela and Winkelhock were at least fairly well known at a time, where Michael Schumacher caused a real racing boom in Germany.
I don't know about other countries, but apart from Football, every type of sports in Germany is destined to blow up like a bubble, only to burst. Take tennis: Boris Becker and Steffi Graf caused a tennis boom in Germany, but once both retired, tennis coverage in the German media went way down. In a sense, the same also happens to F1 at the moment, despite the fact that we still have two top drivers, as well as a German manufacturer dominating the series. I guess the German mainstream sporting fans are tired and saturated by F1. But a declining interest in F1 doesn't spell good things for DTM and such. In my opinion, mainstream interest in other forms of racing in Germany only comes alongside a high interest in F1. But when people move away from F1, they move entirely away from racing.
But in my opinion, it's not neccesarily such a bad thing: The German racing scene can perhaps consolidate itself, rebuild (With the ADAC GT Masters, the new TCR Series and the DTC, as well as VLN, there a more than solid foundation) and recharge forward in a couple of years. But the first step has to be to closedown of DTM, because that series takes up too many resources: Too many sponsors, too much public interest (even though it's falling), too many fans. When the DTM doesn't take any of these away, other series can surely make good use of it.

DTM will fall when HWA will loose money which is not the case right now.

HWA has a rather handy ROI of 10% right now which is qui healthy.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yet there is no indication whatsoever that DTM will fall...

Well, there is no official TV deal for 2016 yet (Although the DTM's twitter account confirmed that they retain their current deal), attendance is declining, mainstream attention is barely existant, the series lacks real stars, real sponsors and real racing. Granted, the manufacturers are still in it, but I can definitely see Audi and Mercedes pulling the plug on their DTM programmes. Audi, because of the VW diesel scandal and Mercedes, because they may need to save some money, due to the expensive F1 program.

Originally Posted by Rf1 Fan

DTM will fall when HWA will loose money which is not the case right now.

HWA has a rather handy ROI of 10% right now which is qui healthy.

Do you have any source for that? Because the ITR, the organizers of the DTM, is a non-profit organisation, which isn't allowed to earn any money. Any money Herr Aufrecht makes comes perhaps from his shares in AMG and the activities of the HWA AG.

[Rf1 Fan]

Originally Posted by DS"

Well, there is no official TV deal for 2016 yet (Although the DTM's twitter account confirmed that they retain their current deal), attendance is declining, mainstream attention is barely existant, the series lacks real stars, real sponsors and real racing. Granted, the manufacturers are still in it, but I can definitely see Audi and Mercedes pulling the plug on their DTM programmes. Audi, because of the VW diesel scandal and Mercedes, because they may need to save some money, due to the expensive F1 program.



Do you have any source for that? Because the ITR, the organizers of the DTM, is a non-profit organisation, which isn't allowed to earn any money. Any money Herr Aufrecht makes comes perhaps from his shares in AMG and the activities of the HWA AG.

I talked about HWA AG specifically not ITR or Hans Werner Aufrecht.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

If HWA AG is not healthy then DTM will have problems imo.

Somewhat HWA AG is historically the heart of DTM since 2000.

From what i see HWA AG is making good money of its businesses.

The books looks good, so i can see why would HWA AG is willing to be standstill with DTM in terms of product as they earn good money.

For the source:
http://www.hwaag.com/fileadmin/user_...HWA_GB14_e.pdf

2015 for first semester numbers were looking better than 2014.

[DS"]

Thanks for the report!

The way I see it, HWA AG is also making money by selling Formula 3 engines and especially by selling the GT3 versions of the Mercedes-AMG GT. However, doesn't the HWA AG receive money by Mercedes to run the DTM program? So in the end, if Mercedes pulls the plug, things would look not too good for HWA and thus the DTM.

That is the main problem of the DTM anyway: Too much dependence on manufacturers. I think we all agree when we say that DTM should have provided better conditions for potential privateers, right?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by DS"

That is the main problem of the DTM anyway: Too much dependence on manufacturers. I think we all agree when we say that DTM should have provided better conditions for potential privateers, right?

That's like saying we all agree that we should get more money in our jobs. Doesn't mean it'll change one iota, though.

I just find DTM easier to ignore than to get worked up about it. Especially since our number-2-series (GT-Masters) is at a level most countries would love to have as their top series. And then there's the new TCR-series to get excited about.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Those good old days never existed. Trans-Am was already a tube-chassis series when DTM first came onto the scene in 1984, and the South African cars were also always a lot more radical then what you could do in Group A.

My bad, I meant DRM.

@DS" thanks for an interesting answer! Was TV coverage in Ludwig's days as huge as today? Not mentioning Internet. I think, TV was a sweet curse for every kind of motorsports, especially those, who tend to be "entertaining" like a show. It's understandable, that people like to watch close racing (especially at TV) - so since then we don't have much difference in tech, as DTM, in fact, almost a spec chassis with superbly tight engine rules (besides, were there any "longer" tech sets for engines 2000-2019 - almost 20 years on the same block). So, no more space for sudden mid-season fight backs or so on. As an engineer, I'm deeply frustrated by that. I think only those, who at last find the golden middle of TV advantages and true, fair motorsports (not just high speed shows) will end up with a superb championship. Unfortunately, it can happen too late, as new generation prefer to watch virtual racing.

[Rf1 Fan]

Seems like Vietoris will keep his seat as he is back in HWA headquarters doing seatfit.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by FIRE

What GT3 racing is now was touring car racing in '70s, '80s and '90s.

The boundaries between GT and Touring cars were blurred in the past. A Capri or a 635 could be considered GT or touring car.

I don´t find DTM racing specially bad, for me what needs to improve is the variety of the rounds. For example having a few long races.

[Rf1 Fan]

Now Mercedes says they will hopefully unveil their DTM line-up mid-february.

Something is going on....

I'm pretty sure that Vietoris,Wickens , Di Resta and Paffett are safe.

[BSchneiderFan]

What happens to Wehrlein is key. Ocon must be getting impatient.