"Red and Chequered"

[JohnD]

On another thread, Carsten from Germany referred to the use of the red AND chequered flags to end a race prematurely. I presume that once these are shown at the finish line they are followed by reds in sequence around the course, so that cars are allowed to finish at racing speed?

Sounds an excellent idea for occasional need. Is this a standard German practice? Can we/should we import it?

John

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by JohnD

On another thread, Carsten from Germany referred to the use of the red AND chequered flags to end a race prematurely. I presume that once these are shown at the finish line they are followed by reds in sequence around the course, so that cars are allowed to finish at racing speed?

Sounds an excellent idea for occasional need. Is this a standard German practice? Can we/should we import it?

John

If its close enough to call, then why not.

Totally and utterly disagree with you about reds in sequence though....they should all be deployed simultaneously...a red is usually thrown because of a dangerous situation (usually a Driver in a vulnerable postion).....a lack of indication immediately following the Start/Finish line or around the reason for the red in the first place, could lead to an incident caused by someone not seeing a red.

Don't forget...you can have a field spread out on most of the track sometimes.

[archaic gold]

Once the RED/Chequered flags have been displayed, why continue at "Racing Speeds"? You can not overtake on a Red, and the reason for the premature stoppage is normally a serious incident on Track. If there is a premature "Stop", results are taken back one lap.
It is impossible to have simultaneous Red flags at most Circuits, as the lead for displaying a Red has to be from the next Flag point. Only if a Flag Marshal has red lights within his sight can he cat any differently.
The situation can be slightly upgraded if each Marshal's Post is in direct Radio Contact with Race Control.

[JohnD]

Hang on guys - read my post.
I said, "to end a race prematurely", not to stop a race because of a safety issue.

Rather than speculate about how it should be used, if at all, how is it used, if it is used, in Germany?
Carsten? Anyone from there?
Is this an recognised signal? How is it used?

JOhn

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Hang on guys - read my post.
I said, "to end a race prematurely", not to stop a race because of a safety issue.


JOhn

If you want to end a race prematurely and there is no safety issue then why show a red?

[carsten.meurer]

sorry for being unclear !

it is not common practice in germany !

it was rather a example of how raceconntrol misuses the flags because not knowing the rulebook !

they wanted to end a race after 70% because of time issues, and did so
useing the red flag ! red, because it was not the sheduled number of laps !
the logic behind this is beyond me aswell... why not just chequer ?

of course th ered caused the results to be wound a lap back, and as a
result 70% not being raced !

i feel a red / chequer is a good way of showing a session or race is stopped
early, and will not restart again !
normally after a red discussion arises if the session or the race is restarted or
not, and for what time or laps.
here the additional chequer works to make clear its full stop, and results will
be declared as car were crossing the line !

[JohnD]

Thanks, Carsten!

If this is NOT an accepted practice elsewhere, I see no reason to adopt it here!

John

[Notso Swift]

Yes, If our race is to finish early (in lap terms) due to lateness (in time terms) we are told before we go out, on the dummy grid.
The only other way they can do it is if the Sup regs have a time limit on the event.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Totally and utterly disagree with you about reds in sequence though....they should all be deployed simultaneously...

I'm with you on that! If I've got a serious incident I want a red flag NOW! Because in the UK, for car meetings, flaggies are only allowed to put out the red when they see it at the adjacent post, halfway round the circuit you're relying on the reaction times of probably a dozen people.....it can seem like a very long time. Red flags are usually called over the radio, but even if they have scanners, flaggies are forbidden to act on that, although it does speed the process, as anyone who has heard the call can have the red flag ready & will be watching for reds from either side. At bike meetings, it's just the opposite - all communication between race control & posts is by radio, so at the call 'all points, red flag' the reds are out. Theoretically the sector marshal is supposed to give the instruction to the flaggies, but in practice, if you hear the call, you put the red out - some clubs even loan scanners to flaggies.

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>>>Red flags are usually called over the radio, but even if they have scanners, flaggies are forbidden to act on that

Can anyone explain why?

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>>>>>>Red flags are usually called over the radio, but even if they have scanners, flaggies are forbidden to act on that

Can anyone explain why?

they may have missheard a *request* for a red flag as an instruction to *throw* a red flag....

[Eddy V]

Simple.
1. they may mishear some conversation / word with "red" in it and hey presto:

Happened at Spa, some years ago. Somebody at Racecontrol (!) mentioned "Eau Rouge" over the radio and some marshals picked that up as "Drapeau Rouge". Ouch!

It's like calling for mr. Fred Flagg over the radio.

2. some people (spectators) with a radio may call for a red flag, just out of fun. Happened before.

Only the Obs decides if the call is genuine and they watch out for others posts hanging out the flag, or the lights.

[JohnD]

Happened at Oulton a few years ago. There was a 'coming together', whcih admittedly led to a lot of flying glassfibre, and two cars spinning off, but one into a safe position and the other was able to continue. Meanwhile, an excited flag marshal picked up the wrong flag, red when he had emant to reach for yellow. Before the error could be corrected, the next post picked it up and showed a red as well, and the 'red wave' went around the circuit.

Got to be first class observation by the succeeding posts!
Maybe THAT'S why marshals are supposed to only show a red on orders from on high?

John

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by mini1400

they may have missheard a *request* for a red flag as an instruction to *throw* a red flag....

Which is why bike clubs will insist that sector marshals always ask for a 'race stop' (or session stop if it's in practice) rather than a red flag; it's also normal practice for red flag calls from race control to be in the form of 'all points, red flag'.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

t's also normal practice for red flag calls from race control to be in the form of 'all points, red flag'.

... or 'Control all points. Red flag, Red flag. Controlled stop. Car in dangerous position"

[midgetman]

Thank you!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Happened at Oulton a few years ago. There was a 'coming together', whcih admittedly led to a lot of flying glassfibre, and two cars spinning off, but one into a safe position and the other was able to continue. Meanwhile, an excited flag marshal picked up the wrong flag, red when he had emant to reach for yellow. Before the error could be corrected, the next post picked it up and showed a red as well, and the 'red wave' went around the circuit.

Got to be first class observation by the succeeding posts!
Maybe THAT'S why marshals are supposed to only show a red on orders from on high?

John

The next post did wrong then!!!

You never should put out the red unless you have heard from Race Control (red flag times three).....I have been on a Flag Point several times without comms (for one reason or another).

Under these circumstances, and only under these circumstances, I watch what at least the point before and after are doing (and as many others as are visible) before deploying a Red....its just common sense.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

The next post did wrong then!!!

No they didn't.

You may do things differently, but here's how it works here (for cars):

The red flag is ordered by race control, who will relay the instruction to the flaggie on the startline, usually, but not exclusively, by radio. Flag points either side of the startline will then follow suit, but no flaggie must put out a red flag until (s)he has seen it displayed at one of the points on either side. Many flaggies will not have radios, & even if they have, they are under strict instructions NOT to react to anything they may hear. Communication between race control & observers is, at most UK circuits, by phone. Race control will not phone round every post informing them of a red flag call, so in many cases people on a post will not know the red flag has been called for until they see it displayed at an adjacent post.

The only person who did wrong in John's example was the poor unfortunate who picked up the wrong flag!

[archaic gold]

There are exceptions to every rule (I am soory to say!) At Brands Hatch we have repeater RED LIGHTS at Surtees (9), Hawthorms(24), Stirlings (20) and opposite the Pit Lane Entry (24), plus the original ones at the Start/Finish Line. If a "flaggie" has DIRECT visual of ANY of these lights, he is permitted to put out a Red flag.
Most Observers boxes at Silverstone are wired to an internal PA from Race Control, which would announce "Race Control to all Observers - Red Flag Red Flag" which the observer can react to immediately if he is in a position to be with his Flag Marshals (Not always possible)

[archaic gold]

Sorry, after a day in 32 degrees of sun at Brands; Hawthorns should (14)

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by archaic gold

Most Observers boxes at Silverstone are wired to an internal PA from Race Control, which would announce "Race Control to all Observers - Red Flag Red Flag" which the observer can react to immediately if he is in a position to be with his Flag Marshals (Not always possible)

IIRC,the only posts at Silverstone (GP) with plausible Flag/Obs communications are,Ped Bridge,Club,Abbey out,Priory,Brooklands,Luffield in/out and the gap .
As you say,(not always possible),although there are a few red light repeaters at various points.
Combe have red light repeaters at most points round the circuit

[JimW]

I have seen the chequered displayed as well as the red at the start line several times. Two points:

1. It tells drivers that the race has been ended and a result will be declared, i.e. no re-start is contemplated.

2. It actually enforces that decision even if the decision is wrong according to that bit of the Regulations which say what should happen when there is a red flag. That is because the Regs are quite clear that when a chequered flag is displayed the race is ended and a result declared at that time; right-or-wrong, it is a final result.

(Too hot to be bothered to look up the Blue book references - sorry. )

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Grandslammer

. . . Combe have red light repeaters at most points round the circuit

As does Donington. Difficult to see why every circuit does not have them. Much better than flags in most cases. (I'm not making that argument for other flags - well not just now. )

Regards

Jim

[peenuts]

watched single seaters sunday at brands hatch second to last race of the day stopped three times on the red flag ok apart from two things
1.they dont stop when stop board put out they just driver past.
2. and at a speed that is a danger to all on the track RED IS STOP RACING AND PROCEED WITH CAUTION AS INSTRUCTED.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by JimW

I have seen the chequered displayed as well as the red at the start line several times. Two points:

1. It tells drivers that the race has been ended and a result will be declared, i.e. no re-start is contemplated.

2. It actually enforces that decision even if the decision is wrong according to that bit of the Regulations which say what should happen when there is a red flag. That is because the Regs are quite clear that when a chequered flag is displayed the race is ended and a result declared at that time; right-or-wrong, it is a final result.

(Too hot to be bothered to look up the Blue book references - sorry. )

Regards

Jim

I suppose the difference there is that with both flaqgs being displayed the result will be taken from the lap it is stopped on and with a red only, result it would be rolled back to the previous lap.