Hamilton's Spa penalty - fair?/ Massa Handed Win..Merged

[beau1]

Originally Posted by RaiseYourFist

You need to watch the replays again, he wasnt in Kimi's slipstream...

well according to Lewis "I went to pick up his tow and I did, so "

......If thats not convincing enough then I donno what is.

From the ITV highlights by the way.

[James Elder]

Originally Posted by rallyxdamo

I'm glad you have realised i'm the mature one here. Thats why i said grow up. If it had have been (kubica or webber) penalised this thread might not be as big as it is.You also forgot the talented Mr Massa who won today.

I think you should look at what you write - what am I likely to think about a comment such as "grow up"?

This is a debate about a particular subject. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it.

The size of the thread and persons involved are both irrelevant. This is a discussion about a penalty applied by race stewards. In this case it has sparked a very large and detailed debate in the motor racing community who subscribe to this site.

I suggest you read the rules and print more polite comments in future.

[Ted bennett]

Originally Posted by EERO

Thanks for pointing that out. Clearly even less reason for Hamilton to have gone straight!

Having just had a second viewing I see that there is indeed a section of grass in addition to the greencrete, please accept my apologies.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by beau1

I think its the position of which Lewis ended up on the track that gave him an advantage rather than the speed. He gains an advantage by skipping the Chicane concedes this but then makes use of the advantage he had gained by skipping the chicane by attaching himself to the Ferraris chicane.
As far as I could tell, he was never on the racing line in on the chicane and Kimi was, had Hamilton been on the the racing line and not skipped the chicane then he would have probably not passed him at La Source.

Looks like LH was on the racing line - and slightly ahead - but was forced off it (fairly) by Kimi:

analysis

(with the weave on the straight that went unpunished shown for good measure)

[Pondo]

Originally Posted by beau1

As far as I could tell, he was never on the racing line in on the chicane and Kimi was, had Hamilton been on the the racing line and not skipped the chicane then he would have probably not passed him at La Source.

Lewis had the racing line on the way in, and was in front - Kimi chose the inside but locked up and absolutely blocked Lewis off, costing himself speed on the way out. It's not fair to say Lewis probably couldn't have passed him into La Source, as the number of things that could have happened is pretty infinite...

[garcon]

Originally Posted by James Elder

I suggest you read the rules and print more polite comments in future.

We'll make the suggestions, thanks.

However, remarks like "grow up" are unnecessarily confrontational.

It's only natural that feelings can run high when this kind of thing happens, but please remember that it is possible to debate your points and still be respectful to each other.

[rallyxdamo]

Originally Posted by James Elder

I think you should look at what you write - what am I likely to think about a comment such as "grow up"?

This is a debate about a particular subject. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it.

The size of the thread and persons involved are both irrelevant. This is a discussion about a penalty applied by race stewards. In this case it has sparked a very large and detailed debate in the motor racing community who subscribe to this site.

I suggest you read the rules and print more polite comments in future.

Like you said (everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it.)

[hyphen]

Originally Posted by Alex K

No way. This is not freakin IndyCar... let them race for God's sake.

I'm late to the discussion but in the old days Lewis would have gone i to the gravel an Kimi would have sailed home to a win.
Today, the rule is such that is you have advantage through a shortcut, you have to give way. I don't know what the F1 rulebook states but Cart drivers previously gave a full car length to gain a slipstream. Hamilton only gave a 'nose' length. To me, Lewis was too hot to pass again and did not give sufficient distance for his 'off'.
We cannot predict what would happen in the next turns if Lewis was further behind but we did see Kimi more cautious braking as it got wetter.

_h

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by rallyxdamo

Like you said (everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it.)

Guys, check your PMs.

[blue nose]

Lewis was 6kph slower over the start finish line acording to his data. Kimi opened the door by going over to the left and allowed Lewis enough room to get through.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by ensign14

(with the weave on the straight that went unpunished shown for good measure)

talking of waiving you might want to check the video after eau rouge, i think you will find some unpunished waiving there

[ROGER JORDAN]

Originally Posted by Mark Griffiths

It's a ridiculous decision.

It's a simple situation- as they enter the chicane LH is partly alongside the Ferrari. There is then a racing incident, of a kind you'll see every weekend all around the world where the leading car shuts the door. The would-be overtaker then decides he doesnt want an accident, so bails out and cuts the chicane. At the exit of the corner, he is no longer partly alongside but completely behind the leading car. He has therefore lost track position as opposed to gaining an advantage and should not be penalised.

I think Mark has hit the nail firmly on the head, the move was never really on and Hamilton only had one place to go (would he have been so keen to go off track if there was a gravel trap there?) he clearly gave the place back and to say he got a tow from the slipstream is ridiculous, he wasn`t directly behind the Ferrari for more than a few milliseconds but dived to and fro BEHIND and simply outbraked into the hairpin.

These carpark sized run off areas are now getting to be a bit of a joke the speed Raikkonen carried on the runoff area later in the lap must have outweighed the extra distance travelled, likewise in the German GP where runoffs were just used as an extension of the track, no chance of that happening at Valencia eh!!!!
Seriously though I would prefer to see races won and lost ON the track, these large runoffs do not help at times like this, perhaps we need to replace kerbs with six inch high concrete blocks, that would get the drivers attention!! Regards Roger Jordan

[deeks6]

Rules broken
Penalty applied
Simple really

His teammate should have got another drive through penalty for his first corner madness too apart from ruining Webbers race

[RotorFan]

I was hoping for a Ferrari win, but I thought the closing laps were fantastic to watch. I thought Hamilton's move was very cheeky, but within the rules. Never thought I'd say it, but Hamilton deserved to win that race.

If there is a conspiracy, I wouldn't say it is to help Ferrari, I'd say its to keep the championship close.

[Kebab]

If Lewis was 6kph slower over the start-finish line than Kimi, how did he maintain position not even a car length behind before breaking? Weird.

[RaiseYourFist]

Because they braked really early as it was wet?

[NAC]

As much as I feel for Lewis I thought at the time he should have waited untill the next corner and that that move may just come back to bite him.

My understanding of the rule is - you cut the corner then you cant take the advantage, the move was just to soon after the incident. He should have just waited, he was going to take Kimi anyway, whats another corner between friends.

PS I know some here are very heated about it so just to clear up I'm not looking for a fight, just stating how I feel. I still gave Hamilton driver of the race.

[Spudgun]

This is an absolute travesty (again). You can argue the toss about the chicane all night, but the fact was he let Kimi back in front and then repassed him. Its not Hamilton's fault that he braked later than him into La Source.

Warning, what follows is a rant and does not necessarily represent the opinions of Ten-Tenths. (To be honest, it probably doesn't even represent the opinions of the poster when they aren't ranting.) I'm sorry, but this is just killing the sport and its just getting outrageous. The FIA need impartial stewards, not the likes Alan Donnelly who is a widely known supporter of Mosely. Nothing wrong with that at face value, but it does not look good in situations like this. It just creates controversy, like now. Whether or not there is any 'politics' going on its not good PR full stop. But personally I think there is more to it, but there you go. My opinion is if the situation was reversed there would have been no penalty. To those that disagree, fair enough, this is what the forum is for. I really hope that F1 would create a breakaway series. Regardless of the vote of confidence from FIA members (more than meets the eye there too) I have no respect whatsoever for Max's pathetic cling to power. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the sort of man he is. We now return you to our normal ramblings.

[rustyinsthoz]

A corrupt sport at its worst.

[Bononi]

I would like to think that this has come to bring something better to F1.

A final blow to Max and the FIA as we know now.

A big crisis from the bottom to the top would shake the very foundations of this rotten structure.
In Chinese the symbols for crisis are "danger" and "opportunity" meaning, in days of big danger comes new opportunities for a change.

There's the chance...

[calibrax]

Not saying it's a fix, but I think it's time to rename the sport WWF1...

[ivanalesi]

I think it's sorted pretty OK in the US.
Blocking MUST be forbidden!
It always starts with this, someone blocks and something bad happens...
I know Senna and Schumacher were great, but they are just such bad teachers to young drivers. Dirty driving seems to be the norm. For me, Kimi was at fault - he must give enough room! Then Lewis was at fault again, he gave back his position but kept on slipstreaming, now I've seen that a lot on GP2 and it's a form of cheating. You give back the position for several meters, only to overtake easily on the very next corner. But still - Kimi first pushed him wide!
It reminded me of Imola 04 and Montoya vs Schumacher, dirty driving at the best.
Btw, last year Pavlovic won in similar style against Ben Hanley in WSbR, Ben wasn't impressed!

Btw, I've seen some pics quite near the finishing line and I believe this is the reason Lewis got this. They both cross the line side by side, with Kimi less than a meter in front. The stewards probably felt Lewis didn't lift off enough.

[Burnsie]

Even though I'm a Ferrari fan, I have to admit that this decision has spoiled what was a thoroughly entertaining end to today's Grand Prix. However, although the decision may be seen as harsh, it was fair.

It's not the FIA stewards' job to speculate about whether or not Hamilton would have overtaken Raikkonen at turn 1 had the indident not occurred, they have to just answer two questions - did he gain an advantage by cutting the chicane, and if so, did he lift off sufficiently to cancel out that advantage. Obviously they found that he gained an unfair advantage, and therefore 25 seconds were added to his race time. Had the incident happened earlier in the race, a drive-through penalty would presumably have been enforced, resulting in a similar time penalty.

[greenracer]

Originally Posted by beau1

Not that it should matter but he didn't finish infront of DLR at the end of the race. He got passed by DLR not very long afterwards, broke a track rod and finished 8th.
Also as far as I can see DLR was never actually in front of Schumacher before the chicane.
Its a hard comparison to make because Schumacher was the defending car whereas Hamilton today was attacking.

The rule states MUST NOT cut a chicane to gain an advantage it is irrelevant of the position of the cars going into the chicane if you pass or gain an advantage by cutting the chicane you must address the situation clearly shu did not ,drive through penalty should have applied regardless of his subsequent mechanical problem.

[Marbot]

One wonders if the penalty would have still been applied had Kimi won the race and the answer would have to be yes as the opportunity for a Ferrari one-two would be too good to miss.What with the 'incidents' in Magny-Cours and Valencia and add to this Ferrari's ability to still develop its engine (how in Gods name can two STRs suddenly be faster than two RedBulls?) while others get turned down for 'reliability (?) modifications' and you cannot help but cry Foul!