Hamilton's Spa penalty - fair?/ Massa Handed Win..Merged

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Anyone think we need a poll here ? I suggest we start an organized thread against the decision and think a way to get it into the FIA.

I don't think we need this thread at all, there is already enough discussion in "massa handed win" that duplicates what is being said here.
And is the full text of the decision available somewhere? I get the impression that "everybody" has read it.....

[strider]

I was at Spa a few weeks back and watched a couple of races from a room directly overlooking that very chicane. Everyone was telling me beforehand how difficult it was to overtake on the outside at the first part and they were right. It's a bad design because the angles are all wrong.

Kimi did nothing wrong. He was entitled to take his apex at both parts of the chicane, which he did. Lewis had put himself in a vulnerable position so he had to take the short cut. After that he had to let Kimi back in front, which he did, but only by a very token amount. Charlie Whiting may have said it was okay, but he offers opinions, doesn't make ultimate decisions.

Having said that, Lewis was quicker than Kimi at that stage of the race and would have got past, but, as has happened before, he was just too impetuous.

What do you do if a driver would have won the race because a) he was quicker and b) the other driver later crashed out? Turn a blind eye to what was clearly an error on his part?

[JeremySmith]

This decision is a complete joke...

[andy_b]

McLaren appealing (txt from paddock, but I cant find any news sites with it on)

[Charlies]

Heikki deserved his penalty, but Hamilton's is bizarre.

Following on from Valencia it's difficult to argue that there isn't bias. Massa's offence in the pitlane could have resulted in an accident, but the penalty is a $10,000 fine. Hamilton's offence is a) sporting and b) corrected 50m later and the win is taken away.

The FIA's credibility is gone and F1 will be a laughing stock.

[ralf fan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70402

Mclaren to appeal. This will run and run.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by andy_b

McLaren appealing (txt from paddock, but I cant find any news sites with it on)

Autosport has it now. Here.

[Copperbottom]

NO

[jondownunder]

Screw you, FIA.

If their roles were reversed, I have no doubt at all that Raikkonen would still be credited with the win.

The pinnacle of the sport is horribly corrupt. That's been made apparent by years of pro-Ferrari bias. I'm utterly, utterly sick of it, and will continue to spend most of my time on other series, where true sporting competition is allowed.

[Spawinte]

Originally Posted by Kebab

You deserve a medal for being Hamilton's biggest fan ... but I'm afraid your interpretation will never agree with mine. Kimi had track position, Lewis should have fallen in behind and made the chicane. He'd probably have 10 points had he done just that. Instead he has 6.

So now you're resorting to "you're just a little fanboy". Its not up to you to decide what he should have done, he was racing for position and he decided to make a move. You make it sound like he should have just followed Kimi around and let him win. You can do a little search and you will find I didn't make a single post in regard to Massa's non-penalty at Valencia.

[Bononi]

At least they're doing something.

[Kebab]

What would the normal time difference between two cars following each other through a chicane be? 0.3secs? 0.5s? Any idea what distance between the cars that would equate to at the end of that straight?

My guess is about 3 car lengths. Quite clear Lewis didn't 'give back' all of the advantage he gained.

If only he'd waited another lap ...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by strider

Everyone was telling me beforehand how difficult it was to overtake on the outside at the first part and they were right. It's a bad design because the angles are all wrong.

Been overtaken and overtaken others on that line. It isn't that difficult. However if you want to defend then it is easier to do it from the inside of the first part.

Kimi did nothing wrong. He was entitled to take his apex at both parts of the chicane, which he did. Lewis had put himself in a vulnerable position so he had to take the short cut. After that he had to let Kimi back in front, which he did, but only by a very token amount. Charlie Whiting may have said it was okay, but he offers opinions, doesn't make ultimate decisions.

So, if I understand everyone, we are now really discussing how much a driver should drop back before it becomes a legitimate "give"? Never heard of anything so absurd in my life.

[brands]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Autosport has it now. Here.

That just gives the FIA a chance to increase the penalty as ***** Max will now be directly involved.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Autosport has it now. Here.

good to read that Ferrari did not launch any protest at the end of the race, but were only asked to give their opinion to the stewards. I am quite sure many diehards are not going to believe that......

[Kebab]

I believe there is a time limit on when you can say you intend to appeal, so they may be doing it anyway ... while they work out whether they have a case. They've done it before, then decided not to follow through.

I hope an appeal would not give Max, etc. a chance to make things even worse!

[Pingguest]

Hamilton has done nothing wrong in my opinion. Raikkonen almost forced him to go straigth at the chicane. Hamilton led Raikkonen through again. This is very bad for the creditability of the sport.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So, if I understand everyone, we are now really discussing how much a driver should drop back before it becomes a legitimate "give"? Never heard of anything so absurd in my life.

well, you (the stewards) need to have a concrete benchmark to establish whether any advantage was gained from "cutting corners", so it is not really absurd.

[Shoe-maker]

The next race is only a week away. I wonder if they'll have the matter sorted by then.

[brands]

Originally Posted by henk4

good to read that Ferrari did not launch any protest at the end of the race, but were only asked to give their opinion to the stewards. I am quite sure many diehards are not going to believe that......

If that is true then it makes you wonder how the same race director who Oked the move with McLaren then went to the stewards after the race and reported it to them ?

http://www.fia.com/belgiumgp/documen...ocument_49.pdf

[pdman]

That's it I'm done...
F1 has become a complete joke..
any real action and the stewards step in ,,, can't have any real racing must only pass during the pit stops. Over taking during race is obviously either to dangerous or not fair on the person being passed.

So lets have more circuits like Valcencia where all the drivers can go round in a nice procession waving to the growds and all the sponsers can see their adverts....

followed F1 for 20 years but I've had enough .. it's a bore and even if the proposed Aero changes next year allow the cars to get close, slip stream and overtake the stewards will find a way of stopping that...

F1 is now a complete joke .... spy scandals last year, pervert Mosley this year plus the end of F1 racing in the UK after 2009 (thanks Bernie)
I'm expecting the FIA to sign Gary Glitter to lead the juniors ...

[EERO]

I have to say that I believe it is a grossly unfair penalty.

No one else has I believe, actually commented on something I've noticed as I've watched the replay. bear with me if I am wrong.

Hamilton made a brave move down the outside going into the chicane and Kimi held the inside line, setting Hamilton up for the inside on the exit of the chicane.

Kimi crossed the track from apex to apex slightly ahead of Hamilton and pushed him towards the left shoulder. As they approached the second apex, Hamilton had three choices:

a) Back off and have his right front wheel collected by Raikkonen's left rear.

b) Stay straight across onto the small patch of grass at the apex. We all know what happens when slicks hit wet grass, don't we? Hamilton would havebeen launched up and slid across the apex to tee-bone the Ferrari on the exit-both cars out.

c) Cut left and stay on the tarmack-concede the place gained.


Hamiliton had to make a split second decision and he made the only viable one, and he allowed the car he had passed to regain position before the next corner. The fact that he reclaimed First in the corner in no way should indicate that he behaved incorrectly.

He made a choice in a split second and it was the right choice. He accepted the penalty and immediately fought back.

It is a ruling that even if it is not biased, certainly calls to question the ethics of the FIA.

[Andrew Kitson]

Why the suprise? It is what McLaren have had to get used to. Don't forget the events of January this year. The last line of this article is particularly worrying:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19972.html

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Hamilton has done nothing wrong in my opinion. Raikkonen almost forced him to go straigth at the chicane.

Perhaps Hamilton should have avoided the situation where his only option was to go straight, Raikonen had the inner line....

[Peter Mallett]

It is if the cars go past a spot with the "advantaged car" behind. Which was the case. It shouldn't matter how much space there is between them. If it does then you've got the absurdity because you cannot legislate for the distance.

FWIW neither driver was wrong, it was racing.