Roll Cages

[Novice]

Stephen does the chief pits of chief paddock attend the morning briefings? If they do could this be raised at this point so that they know what is going on. Comments from any pits, assembly or paddock marshals please.

[Gonfra]

The whole point of a roll hoop in single seaters and the like is to do "exactly what it says on the tin" i.e to protect and prevent any damage to the drivers head in the event of a roll.
I have witnessed at least two incidents this season where if the drivers head/helmet had protruded above the roll hoop then that particular driver would not be on this earth today or at the very least would be driving a very different kind of wheeled vehicle.
One of our first priorities as rescue crews when attending incidents is protection and stabilisation of the C spine/neck...If the hoop does not do it's job then to put it quite simply as EP quite rightly says the scope for injury is wide, at one end of the scale we could be only dealing with concussion and to take it to it's extreme the driver could possibly end up a quadraplegic or quite simply dead.
As I see the situation,in the old days when all single seater drivers were of jockeyesque stature i.e short, then the roll hoop/height ratio was not too much of a problem but it appears to me that drivers in every single seater formulae nowadays are getting taller,hence the need for a change in the regulations, but who do we put the onus on to fit a suitable roll hoop?
Do we enforce the regulation at the manufacture stage? Messrs Reynard or Ford do not know who is going to be driving the car at the build stage do they?
Each driver has a different seat - the amount of padding,overall design of each seat also will affect the drivers height when seated.
The onus IMO should be put on the teams to ensure that the roll hoop when the driver is seated has sufficient clearance.This should then be enforced at the time the car is scrutineered i.e the driver and the car should be present at scrutineering and if when seated there is not sufficient clearance then that car will be failed and not allowed to race.

[Stephen Green]

That's exactly what I was trying to suggest originally, that the car should be scrutineered with the driver strapped in and wearing his race helmet. We could then instruct the assembly area or pit lane marshals to reject any car/driver that came to them which did not comply with the rules.

To answer Novice's question, at Brands Hatch (the only circuit I have any real knowledge about) the Chief Pits does not attend the marshals briefing. Maybe it would be a good idea if he did, then he/she would be made aware of our concerns.

In the meantime, I shall continue to submit written reports on drivers who in my opinion are not complying with the rules. Maybe the C of the C will eventually do something about it? Could I suggest all other Observers do the same. If we act in unison then there is a much better chance of the clubs taking notice!

[Warwick]

When I raced speedway in about 1982 there was a minimun clearence specified and checked for,from the top of the helmet to the bottom of a steel plate which was welded to the roof of the cage with the driver in the car with helmet on.

there has been at least one death reported about 7-8 years ago when then rule wasn't observed and some one taller than the regular driver was driving the car,the driver suffered neck injuries due to a hard hit or roll over,this was in a full contact speedway class.

[Flagman]

Perhaps there is an simple way to solve this - just station a scrutineer at the exit of the pit lane at the start of each session, with the power to prevent a driver going out if his helmet breaks the rules - after all they do tyre checks etc. at some meetings in this way.

[Stephen Green]

Splendid idea, why didn't we think of that earlier?

Guess what?????????????

[Stephen Green]

This is my 4,000th post yippee

[scrutineer]

Flagman this is a solution however the club only allow us to have a certain amount of scrutineers for each event, this means when they are going out during practice we are still doing the cars for the following sessions. Yes we do have tyre checks but this is usualy at big meetings (TOCA etc) were there are extra scrutineers to do this job (sometimes it is done by marshals if there are enough).
I am sure if the club feel this is needed then they can just ask for 1 extra scrutineer to look for this however as we all know they want to make as much money as they can not spend it.

[wiggles]

The various rules state that there should be a minimum clearance distance between the driver's head and a line drawn between the roll hoop and the front of the car (yadda-yadda-yadda) right?

I'm assuming there isn't a maximum, so why don't manufacturers/teams just build tall roll-hoops onto cars as standard as this would cover every size of driver from short to tall etc.

Is the reason for not doing this purely an financial reason or are there others, such as lateral load strength of the hoop when on the car or how fashionable it looks!

Or am I being stupid?

[QuickBrownFox]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
This is my 4,000th post yippee

Hi Steve. I guess that with recent events, you may now be able to get out a bit more (I'm not saying that your comments are not well received)

[woodyracing]

Hi all !

Its quite a coincidence to find this thread, as I have been reading the blue book and have recently noticed one single seater driver whos helmet is clearly above the imaginary line from the roll bar to the top of the chassis. I think its upto the driver (or team) to check that s/he fits the car properly. Im a little suprised that the mentioned driver continues to drive like that though.

[paul.hickman]

Stephen - 4000+ posts ( and red trainers)??? And you tell me that I'm an anorak!!! Good on yer...

[Muppetrescue]

Could I perhaps suggest that we change the scrutineering criteria to include that you must present yourself amd your car " ready to race " ie belted in with helmet on and engine running. Then you can start the safety check by turning off the car with the electrics and go from there.

A couple of reasons for this ;

1) You see the driver in race position and can then check can they reach kill switch and extinguishers from the seat. You would be surprised how many have the extinguisher switch out of reach.

2) You can check head / rollbar placement.

3) You can check does the driver know how to buckle / unbuckle their belts and adjust them. " The team always does this " was the answer from one novice who could not put his belts back on after a trip in the gravel. Bunching of loose seatbelts is another pet hate of mine and many have been a contributory factor to Dale Earnhardts belt failure.

4) You can see how many of them know how to fasten their chinstraps correctly. Again many novice drivers do not know.

5) Can they enter / exit the car safely and rapidly. Again some novice single seater drivers are " installed " by the team and in their first coupl of events can have trouble with steering wheels etc.

I feel these issues need to be adressed very early in the day at scrutiny so they cam be fixed. Assembly area is probably too late because if there is a problem what happens no practice , no race ??

Enough from me , Oscar and Big Bird are here and we're going for a pint!!

[Stephen Green]

Very good ideas. Now, how do we get them implemented?

[scrutineer]

They are good ideas however most tracks in the UK have a time that engines cannot be run before (most are 8:30-9) and as scrutineering is before this we cant have them running. Also the drivers are often at sign on having breakfast still in bed, and can you really see drivers from TOCA F3 GT's etc wanting to get there at 7:45.
As for things like being able to undo redo belts helmet strap I am sure they should be able to do this during there ARDS test or they should not be able to get a licence.
There is actually a time set down for getting out of a single seater (5 seconds) and it has been known to be tested by scrutineers, however to add all these during scrutineering whould cause major delays in getting cars on the track, and lets face it most of them are common sense to drivers and teams and should be done as a matter of course.

[Stephen Green]

I hear what you say about common sence Scrutineer but we ALL know that it goes out of the window in many cases. Car going on the track with unarmed fire extinguishers, electrical cut out switches bi-passed etc etc. In the end we need to be able to formulate some system which is workable for all concerned, drivers, marshals, scrutineers and team managers.

[rick vaux]

Are we not missing a simple answere to the problem here, or am i being a bit thick, , make the drivers put their helmet on and sit in the car, if he or she has said helmet above r/c, then sorry, but no play today...
If this was to be carried out at the start of the season, after a written request had been made prior to the season opener, then drivers and teams won`t have a leg to stand on..Scruts will be doing their job with the knowledge that if a car rolls, the driver will be protected, and us marshals won`t have the task of strawberry jam removal from tarmac......

[Novice]

Rick this was mentioned before

Originally posted by scrutineer
however as you point out we do not usually see the driver sat in the car (and if we did he hasnt got a helmet on as he hands it to us so we can check it conforms) but if we did they usually go away and put a cushion or a piece of foam in which might put them above (how can we prevent this).

The only time we see the driver and car together ready to go out on track is in the assembly area. After the car has left assembly we are not in a position to stop the driver. Observers have enough to do without looking to see if the drivers helmet is above the imaginary line. Surely it makes sense to tackle this in the assembly area, sorry to put more on any assembly / pits marshals that are reading this but your comments would be welcomed.

I for one do not want to have to clear the track of claret and jam.

[serverbrainfailure]

brings me back to a conversation i had with one of the mechanics of a f ford team at donnington (TOCA meet) - when i commented that there was no external electric cut-off switch, and the drivers one was UNDER HIS LEFT KNEE! he just shrugged and tlod me "there's no reg that requires there to be one" - I nearly had a brain heamorage on the spot i was so angry, but he didn't care...

[Cynic]

I think that at the end of the day the onus has to be on the team and driver to make sure the car's safety features meet the regs. If they want to risk death or serious injury that's up to them. The're the ones that have to live (or not) with the consequences. Sure you could have a srutineer at the assembly area exit with a big ruler, but I'm sure people would still find ways around it.

[Stephen Green]

I disagree. If the rules are there then they should be enforced. The alternative is we have drivers injured, or worse dead, and no one wants that!

[Novice]

Originally posted by Cynic
If they want to risk death or serious injury that's up to them. The're the ones that have to live (or not) with the consequences.

Its not just them that have to deal with it, just ask the marshals that were at Thruxton the other week. I for one do not want to go home at the end of the day knowing that a driver has got serious injuries or even worse died.

When someones life could be at risk you do not take chances. Let me ask you this Cynic are you a marshal or a driver on a very tight budget who cannot extend the roll cage?

[EvilPumpkin]

I can see where you're coming from cynic, but I have to agree with Novice on this.

Also, if they're allowed to be so lax with their own safety, what are the implications for marshals' safety? If they've no respect for their own lives, they're highly unlikely to have any for ours - and if they're led to believe that they can get away with skimping on safety regs off the track, what possible incentive do they have to obey safety regs on the track?

[Stephen Green]

Extremely well said dear lady

[Cynic]

I'm a marshal, and as it happens I was at Thruxton for that meeting. I didn't see the accident in question but having spoken to others I don't think the roll cage is really an issue in that particular case.
As a marshal, I hope I never have to deal with a fatal incident. The point I was trying to make was that, as others have pointed out if the rule concerning roll hoops is not strictly enforced, either at the scrutineering stage or in the assembly area, then inevitably some people are going to break or bend them whether inadvertently or not. Most of the posts here seem to disagree over whether the regs concerning roll hooops are rules or guidelines. If they're rules then they need to be enforced. If they're guidelines, then the drivers / teams should be made to shoulder some of the responsibility.