[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

How do you reduce downforce dependability and increase downforce? Surely by increasing downforce you're increasing your dependance on downforce?

Quite right. Meant to say increase mechanical grip instead of downforce. Now editted.

EDIT: apparently can't edit the message anymore, oh well.

[S griffin]

Fatter slicks, that's the way! And bring back manual gearchange too

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Fatter slicks, that's the way! And bring back manual gearchange too

Agreed.
And drivers should drag their knuckles on the ground while walking, Engineers with greater than a grade 7 education should be banned and we need hay bales in place of all those safety fences and run off areas.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Agreed.
And drivers should drag their knuckles on the ground while walking, Engineers with greater than a grade 7 education should be banned and we need hay bales in place of all those safety fences and run off areas.

I appreciate the sarcasm/irony in your comments, but if you read far enough back in this thread (or possibly another one) I suggested bringing back manual changing gearboxes as just one of the things that should be re-introduced.

In my opinion, F1 has just gone too far down the engineer led racing, and it needs to be brought back to a place where man and machine are battling it out on the track. Currently, the drivers press buttons/twist knobs on their steering wheels on the instructions of someone wearing a white coat locked away in a bunker many thousands of miles away situated in Brackley or Milton Keynes. The driver is so busy listening to a constant flow of information coming through his earphones that he has probably lost the ability to change gear based on the sound of his engine, and has to rely on the coloured lights on the dash/steering wheel.

Many will decry this as be a retrograde step, and to a certain extent this may be true. However, and no disrespect to some of the exceeding young (and some not so young) drivers, but it seems to me that F1 cars have become too easy to drive. They need to be brought back to a state where the power of the car exceeds it's power of adhesion, to a point where driving ability is required to tame the beasts. It is a complete exaggeration I know, but the current (and recent) cars might as well be on rails, because the engineers have almost created cars that can drive themselves.

And while they are at it, they should create tyres that can last a whole race. That way there need be no more pit-stops, and the races can be won or lost on the track, not by the ability of one team to change wheels 100th of a second quicker than it's rivals.

Not only will this bring back proper racing, having got rid of all the wings, diffusers and all the other aero rubbish, but drivers will actually have to overtake on the track not in the pit-lane. It will also have the added benefit of driving down costs, something that F1 desperately needs at the moment.

[Paradise City]

Manor failing to start up because of "computer software" just about sums up the nonsense that F1 has become.

[Adam43]

Became. Over 25 years ago.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And while they are at it, they should create tyres that can last a whole race. That way there need be no more pit-stops, and the races can be won or lost on the track, not by the ability of one team to change wheels 100th of a second quicker than it's rivals.

Not only will this bring back proper racing, having got rid of all the wings, diffusers and all the other aero rubbish, but drivers will actually have to overtake on the track not in the pit-lane. It will also have the added benefit of driving down costs, something that F1 desperately needs at the moment.

Sorry for my sarcasm Mike.
Now I agree with the two suggestions above. They would make racing more relevant to driver skills and the technical development carried out in the formula more relevant to the provisions of better transport solutions for everyone.
My Avatar dates the era in which I started watching F1 and in many ways the racing, both at the front and down through the field is as good as, or better, on a race to race basis than I can recall. Past seasons have been highlighted by great individual races or competition between a couple of drivers, but never as consistently close.
By the way my first ever race meeting as a kid was at Goodwood in 1948 and there was a lot of criticism of allowing very young drivers to compete. A chap called S.Moss sort of proved them wrong. So I don't think times have changed.

[Richard C]

Apologies in advance for selective quoting. I am not trying to rewrite what you have said, but rather to focus on the parts I agree/disagree with...

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

... and it needs to be brought back to a place where man and machine are battling it out on the track.

Agree. Note, at this point I am not talking at all about the complexity (or simplicity) of the machine.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Currently, the drivers press buttons/twist knobs on their steering wheels on the instructions of someone wearing a white coat locked away in a bunker many thousands of miles away situated in Brackley or Milton Keynes. The driver is so busy listening to a constant flow of information coming through his earphones that he has probably lost the ability to change gear based on the sound of his engine, and has to rely on the coloured lights on the dash/steering wheel.

This may sound contrary to my comment above, but I see the problem being less about getting info from others during the races than about why the driver has time to listen. To me that speaks to the quality of the actual racing. Life is not exciting enough if you do nothing but listen to your wife giving you a grocery list over the phone as you drive home.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

They need to be brought back to a state where the power of the car exceeds it's power of adhesion, to a point where driving ability is required to tame the beasts. It is a complete exaggeration I know, but the current (and recent) cars might as well be on rails, because the engineers have almost created cars that can drive themselves.

I am likely in agreement. But I am less concerned about the number of aids, but rather that the cars are not "beastly" enough and less about the aids. Make them beastly even WITH aids.

But I also don't think the way to do this is to create cars that would not look out of place 30 years ago. So I would say "no" to manual transmissions, etc.

This is a poor analogy and will accidently rub some the wrong way, but I think we need more Han Solo swooping through the asteroid field in the Millennium Falcon by the seat of his pants with Tie Fighters hot on his tail and less powerside oversteer by men wearing suits driving skinny tired cars (we have been there, done that). Or rather, maybe you combine the two together somehow.

Richard

[chillibowl]

surprisingly i think i would actually be in favour of going back to manual transmissions. probably due to my lack of technical expertise but does F1(or racing in general) have much more to contribute to road car production in the area of seamless gear boxes and paddle shifters? seems like the development work has already in this area so why not try something new...or rather try something old again and see what new avenues can be found.

but on the whole i dont think that pushing button and twisting knobs is altogether different than turning a wheel or pulling a lever. perhaps because grew up with Star Wars movies and not with older WW2 aviation movies i have a different concept of what it means to be a 'pilot'?

F1 cars may be relatively easier to drive then cars from the past but the level of athleticism and conditioning for drivers now is light years ahead of what it used to be.

for sure there are exceptions and for sure cars were more dangerous but i cant help but wonder if the death/injury rates would have been as high back then if drivers knew more about the benefits of proper diet, the effects of dehydration in relation to drinking, and of course the effects of smoking.

[Richard C]

I love manual transmissions personally, but frankly the reason I think they should not return with F1 is because they are (it really hurts me to say this).... obsolete technology. In the near future even the cheapest road cars will all be automatics with no manual option. Newer fans to F1 would be puzzled as to why the drivers are changing gears in an odd way. It would be likeasking a teen to try to use a rotary dial phone or a driver of today to advance engine spark manually via a crank on the stealing wheel.

I think the best anyone could hope for would be sequential shift boxes with a clutch, but I think even that is an extreme longshot.

Richard

[Paradise City]

Don't make "road relevance" a religion, thank you.

The FIA should mandate one aspect of the sport to road relevance (or some futuristic element set to define the motoring of tomorrow) and showcase that to the sky but the entire sport shouldn't be turned over to it. If after that manufacturers/suppliers can bring something to the road from the track on their own, fine, there's no need for the sport to be overly self conscious about it though.

I see no problem with manual gearboxes. Give the drivers a bit more work to do. Make the racin' a little edgier, a little more skilled. It's silly to sacrifice what could be a good racing enhancement to the pagan god of "road relevance". Talk about curing the disease by killing the patient.

[wnut]

Small steps get rid of the ban on engine development, if the manus want to stay involved they can spend the money!


Watch this Gentlemen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCTJOh-vpF0

What racing should look like, F5000 Tasman Grand Prix, epic race, this is what GP racing should aspire to! ( Not F1, but watch it! Simple proper racing, would attract massive crowds if it was called F1)

[Taxi645]

Here's Massa's take on increasing mechanical grip:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114027

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am likely in agreement. But I am less concerned about the number of aids, but rather that the cars are not "beastly" enough and less about the aids. Make them beastly even WITH aids.

But I also don't think the way to do this is to create cars that would not look out of place 30 years ago. So I would say "no" to manual transmissions, etc.

Richard

Richard, with my suggestions I have been attempting to "kill two birds with one stone", one that the cars have become far too sophisticated which has tended to render the racing over the last few/many years unexciting (there are a number of exceptions, I happily concede) and secondly to introduce rules/regulations that could potentially massively drive down costs.

The "aids" tend to be expensive to engineer initially and to maintain once in action. They require huge amounts of human resources to monitor and to have implimented. I know that this might not be too popular with those who like creating jobs just for the sake of creating them, but with one swoop you could reduce the staffing levels of some of the teams by 3 figure sums.

No, I am not proposing that the cars resemble those from the fifties,sixties or seventies as I am not a complete Luddite, but just that the aero add-ons be banned. Let the designers confine themselves to creating the most aerodynamic bodies with all grip being mechanical. You've just got rid off more expense.

As far as, what seems to be the most controversial part of my proposals, returning to manual stick-shift gearboxes, I remain unconvinced by your arguments. Writing from a British perspective, and I believe also an European one as well, automatic boxes in mainstream road cars are a tiny minority, and certainly in the UK one has to pay a considerable premium to buy an automatic car over it's manual equivalent. I speak from personal experience as I chose to go automatic back in 1972, after spending 8 years commuting through London. Yes, flappy-paddle semi-automatics do seem to be de riguer in up-market cars as well as in most supercars, so that the proud owners of these cars can sit in them and pretend that they are driving a Formula 1 car every time that they pull away from a set of traffic lights, and yes again, this is probably the target audience that BCE is aiming at. But the reality is that the vast majority of F1 viewers around the world are driving manual cars, and that, I would humbly venture, is likely to remain the case for many, many years to come.

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Here's Massa's take on increasing mechanical grip:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114027

Interesting, but a little out of date.

And I'm sick of the media asking the drivers and teams what they think, when everyone is trying to push their own agenda. The media need to start asking and pushing in the places that can make change. Go after the FIA, Bernie, CVC, those people are try and sit at the top while the children squabble and struggle to survive.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Here's Massa's take on increasing mechanical grip:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114027

You will be disappointed to know this article looks like a crib of an interview conducted with Gilles Villeneuve in about 1980!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Writing from a British perspective, and I believe also an European one as well, automatic boxes in mainstream road cars are a tiny minority, and certainly in the UK one has to pay a considerable premium to buy an automatic car over it's manual equivalent.

This is mostly off topic, but in the US less than 4% of the total sales are manual. Many newer automatics get effectively the same or better gas mileage than their manual counterpart. I think the numbers for UK are around 25% and it has been rapidly trending toward more automatics. I can't speak to the cost difference in the UK, but in the US it is not significant (approx $800 for my most recent purchase).

The tipping point is happening now. It will soon not be cost effective for manufactures to offer manuals in many cars. Various markets will tip earlier and others later.

Again, I love manual transmissions. That is all I buy for my cars. My most recent purchase was difficult as I wanted a manual and had to wait longer to get one due to rarity. I also have a side business of rebuilding vintage Porsche manual transmissions! I am a believer! But the demise of that technology is inevitable.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Don't make "road relevance" a religion, thank you.

I am not sure if this is about my comment about manual or not. But assuming it is. It is not so much about road relevance than it is about it eventually being a dead technology and that it would stick out like a sore thumb IMHO. I agree it could be an easy way to make the cars more of a handful to drive. I just think it is the wrong way. I also don't believe in huge amount of road relevance (some is needed). But I think the divergence should be to move forward vs. going backwards. Regardless, I think it is a moot point. My opinion is that we will never see manual transmissions in F1 again.

I can get on board with more power, less aero, larger focus on mechanical grip, less crew in pits (much longer stops), tires that last longer, but have wider performance range, find ways to stop "efficiency racing" (i.e. slow down, you are using too much fuel)

Richard

[VIVA GT]

Taking aside the controversial 'road relevance' aspect of manual gear shifting, I also think that this concept would be totally alien to most youngsters who have been brought up in the X-Box Playstation generation where everything is done by pressing buttons!

[chillibowl]

its easy to dismiss the younger generation but i think the selection of youngsters, lets call them the 'fast and the furious' sub section are more than familiar with manual gearboxes.

for all intents and purposes racing is still depicted in the same way it always has been in movies and in tv.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This is mostly off topic, but in the US less than 4% of the total sales are manual. Many newer automatics get effectively the same or better gas mileage than their manual counterpart. I think the numbers for UK are around 25% and it has been rapidly trending toward more automatics. I can't speak to the cost difference in the UK, but in the US it is not significant (approx $800 for my most recent purchase).

The tipping point is happening now. It will soon not be cost effective for manufactures to offer manuals in many cars. Various markets will tip earlier and others later.

Richard

Richard, I don't know whether you got the wrong end of the stick, or whether you have just expressed yourself poorly. However, the sale of automatic gearboxes on new cars for 2014 was estimated at just 25%, and has only risen that figure by about 7.5% over a decade. At that rate, it will take only another 70 years before we reach the USA's level!

As much as you love stick-shifts, I prefer automatics; it could be that I am now just a lazy driver. However, it is also true that since the eighties I have tended to drive so called gas-guzzlers, and so automatic boxes seem to lend themselves to the drive-train.

But back to the point; I see no huge demand from either the purchasers of cars in the UK and the rest of Europe or the manufacturers to push up the sales of automatic gearboxes. This seems to be confined to the Americas, so let Haas have one in his cars, but the rest must have manuals.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, I don't know whether you got the wrong end of the stick, or whether you have just expressed yourself poorly. However, the sale of automatic gearboxes on new cars for 2014 was estimated at just 25%, and has only risen that figure by about 7.5% over a decade. At that rate, it will take only another 70 years before we reach the USA's level!

I used numbers for UK from here...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...manual-gearbox

I have no idea how accurate that article is. Anyhow, it says in 2004 it was 17.6% and in 2014 it was 25%. A simple 25%-17.6% does give a 7.4% value (close to your 7.5%), but a potentially better number is the percent increase in automatics between 2004 and 2014 and that is 42%. If that rate of increase is used, it is much less time than 70 years before manuals are gone in the UK.

Anyhow, those two data points are not enough to really predict this accurately. What is the shape of that curve? Is it slowing or accelerating? How do you factor in the impact of ongoing improvements in automatic transmissions? But one thing it does show is growth in automatic usage.

Regardless, will anyone raise their hand if they truly believe a majority of people in developed countries will be driving manual cars in 20, 30, or even 40 years? I would love to see more data, but I still stand by my argument that they are on their way out and it is happening very fast.

I have dragged this too far off topic as we are talking just about road cars now. So I will shut up.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I have dragged this too far off topic as we are talking just about road cars now. So I will shut up.

Richard

It might seem it, but I actually don't think that you are straying very far if at all from the topic.

The problem stems from the supposed rulers of the "sport" who have decided in their wisdom that F1 technology should or must have relevance to road going vehicles. The problem then gets compounded when they then decide after the mass car manufacturers incorporate the technology that it needs to be banned in F1. It is just plain perverse and, for the sake of tautology, seems to be completely illogical.

That aside, you may be overlooking a major factor in why auto-boxes are not as popular over here as they are over where you are. Simply put, Europeans buy cars with much smaller engines with considerably lower power outputs which tend to make the average car with an automatic very sluggish. When you combine that with the somewhat higher fuel consumption and add in the premium for having an automatic in the first place, then they do not pose a really interesting proposition to the car buyer.

Let's just mandate manual gearboxes for future F1 cars. My guess is that in the not too distant future, road cars will be driver-less anyway!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Became. Over 25 years ago.

Have they been using software in F1 for that long?

[Sodemo]

Virtually everyone agrees that more mechanical grip is what is required and people have been saying that for well over a decade, yet nothing is ever done about it.

[Adam43]

1990. Probably just before.
But early 90s was when it really took off. Remember the 1994 Benetton traction control code concerns?