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Old 15 Jul 2017, 02:02 (Ref:3751317)   #16
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Someone that lives close to me in the UK has a Nissan Leaf and wanted to go to Wisley RHS, he found out that there is a charging point there as it was going to be "marginal" (a round trip of about 100 miles) to do the complete trip without a charge.
So he gets there and plugs the car in all well and good, after 5 hours he came back to find that "someone" had unplugged his car presumably to charge there own ?
Time was getting on and he drove back using as little electrical stuff as he could including only using side lights as much as he could but he did manage to get home with the warning lights on.
Well, 5 hours is a bit of a cheek one would think!

However if your assumption about the reason for disconnection is correct the the perpetrator was extremely rude not to plug it back in and leave a note perhaps.

There again, it was Surrey and Wisley an whilst there are many nice, caring people connected to both there are certainly a few who would not even consider such an action even marginally antisocial. I would appear that such people are not averse to using electric vehicles! I bet it was a plugin hybrid too!

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Old 15 Jul 2017, 08:04 (Ref:3751361)   #17
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Yes, 5hrs a bit ott! There is apparently an (unwritten?) etiquette in EVland that says that you don't monopolise a charging point. Trouble with Leaf and some other earlier tech cars is that they can only charge slowly. My observations at a rail station with charging points is that the same two BEV owners tend to park there for several hours while either working at the station or away on a journey. (Leaf and a Zoe....) Not the way it is supposed to work. The latest DC-CCS chargers that the i3 can use will give virtually a full charge (from around 30%) in 30 minutes. The 'pump' timer only allows you to be connected this amount of time before switching off, which is great at Mway service areas, where they are mostly utilised. The display shows how long the car has been charging, so anyone arriving can see how long they may have to wait. Said services virtually all now have '2hr time limit' for free parking, and most won't want to stay in one any longer than absolutely necessary, so there is less chance of not being able to charge immediately or within a short space of time.

A Norwich multi-storey car park has just been refurbed, and has a row of 8 charge points. That's impressive. They are 7kw, which defines them as 'fast' in the industry definitions of slow, fast or rapid. As owners will be paying to be in the car park, the cost of parking is likely to define how long they are plugged in, rather than the charge itself.

You also get the problem of 'ice-ing', where a non electric car parks in a charging space. I looked in a new Asda car park for the charging points, and found them just randomly fitted in normal parking places. Only the post itself with a small sign to show. Guess what, 3 of the 4 places had normal cars parked in them...... That's down to Asda and the post providers- rubbish positioning!

So far I've only had 'range anxiety' once, but it's really no different to running low on petrol or diesel late at night and then realising that all the fuel stations on the rest of your journey are closed. I've had that many times in 50 years!
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 09:43 (Ref:3751382)   #18
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So far I've only had 'range anxiety' once, but it's really no different to running low on petrol or diesel late at night and then realising that all the fuel stations on the rest of your journey are closed. I've had that many times in 50 years!
It is different in as much as you can carry a spare 5 lts of fuel for your ice vehicle but you can't carry a spare battery for an all electrical one.

I agree that electric cars have their place for popping into Sainsbury's and general short town runs etc but they won't be replacing conventional (or hybrid) for a long time IMHO
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 09:56 (Ref:3751385)   #19
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Tesla Model S and X carry spare charge. Once you're at 0 miles of range the car keeps going for another good 10-20 miles. Is that any different to carrying the little extra petrol?

A few years ago this technology didn't even exist. Now we have electric cars which can do 300 miles on a charge and recharge in 30-45 minutes. Its expensive right now, but so were cars before the Ford Model T came along. The technology will get cheaper and it will get cheaper quickly. Once cars like the Model 3 and Model Y are in production, we'll see mass adoption of Electric vehicles. By which point other manufactures will be fully onboard as we'll, rather than just dipping their toes in with relatively short ranges.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 11:42 (Ref:3751395)   #20
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It is different in as much as you can carry a spare 5 lts of fuel for your ice vehicle but you can't carry a spare battery for an all electrical one.

I agree that electric cars have their place for popping into Sainsbury's and general short town runs etc but they won't be replacing conventional (or hybrid) for a long time IMHO
Yes, you can carry spare fuel, but how many do?

Small BEVs are perfect for normal journeys, but with a bit of planning are pretty darn good for longer ones as well. The user just has to change their approach to the journey. I'd love a Tesla with a longer range, but even the Model 3 is bigger than I would want, apart from being more expensive!

I'm off to W Sussex in the beemer next week- 160 miles each way. The journey does have the advantage that the destination household have a pukka charging point, but even a UK 13a 3 pin would get the car charged up over time for the return if necessary.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 18:05 (Ref:3751495)   #21
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Yes, you can carry spare fuel, but how many do?

Small BEVs are perfect for normal journeys, but with a bit of planning are pretty darn good for longer ones as well. The user just has to change their approach to the journey. I'd love a Tesla with a longer range, but even the Model 3 is bigger than I would want, apart from being more expensive!

I'm off to W Sussex in the beemer next week- 160 miles each way. The journey does have the advantage that the destination household have a pukka charging point, but even a UK 13a 3 pin would get the car charged up over time for the return if necessary.
So you didn't go for the extended range option or whatever it is called?

Mind you I can see the benefits of rolling up at someone's house and getting them to pay for you fuel ....

Unlikely to happen with petrol or diesel I suppose.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 18:27 (Ref:3751498)   #22
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Since it costs around £3 to fully charge a Nissan leaf, you'll probably find they wouldn't even notice 107 miles on a charge, that makes it 3 pence per mile of driving.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 19:11 (Ref:3751506)   #23
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So you didn't go for the extended range option or whatever it is called?

Mind you I can see the benefits of rolling up at someone's house and getting them to pay for your fuel ....
REx 'range extender' weighs more, has less range on batteries because of that, and is therefore more likely to need the generator. (Which has a tiny fuel tank to be classified as 'low emission' in some countries.) My belief is go pure electric or don't bother!

Re: Your second para, it works both ways. Anyone staying here would be welcome to use my charger.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 19:20 (Ref:3751511)   #24
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How much does it cost to do a full charge? On the Lunacy from France thread, someone mentioned 6kwh to do about 25 miles (I think), on my electric tariff (16p per kwh) that'd cost me 97p which is hardly economical, or doesn't it work like that.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 19:36 (Ref:3751513)   #25
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How much does it cost to do a full charge? On the Lunacy from France thread, someone mentioned 6kwh to do about 25 miles (I think), on my electric tariff (16p per kwh) that'd cost me 97p which is hardly economical, or doesn't it work like that.
Nissan leaf has up to 30kWh battery. At 16 p per kWh, it'd cost £4.80 to charge it fully. Can do 107 miles on a charge say Nissan (lets bring it down to 100, because these numbers are never right). That makes it 4.8 p per mile.

Nissan Pulsar is around the same sized car. The most economic version is the 1.5 dCi. Nissan claim 74mpg, but real world reports are coming in at 58 mpg (which is still pretty good). Average price of diesel in the UK is 116.4 p per litre. The same 100 mile journey at 58 mpg, with fuel costing 116.4 p would cost you £9.12. That comes in at 9.1p per mile.

On your electricity cost, that makes the electric car half the price of the diesel for that journey. If you use a petrol Pulsar then the cost per mile rises to 13.2p per mile, and the gap is growing quickly.

It shouldn't be a surprise that it's cheaper to charge an electric car than fill one with petrol. The entire process of refining petrol, shipping it to petrol stations (which takes more petrol/diesel), and then running the petrol stations takes electricity and energy. So the companies providing this need to raise the price of their product to cope with these overheads. With a straight electric charge you cut out the refining, transportation and infrastructure costs which were inflating your petrol price, and get the electricity straight from the grid. You could argue the grid is an infrastructure cost, but you'd be paying that anyway since you live in a building with electricity, and you're still cutting out part of it as you're no longer funding others ability to pay for the grid. When you look at the bigger picture and the system as a whole, it makes sense that it's cheaper to charge an electric car.

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Old 15 Jul 2017, 22:36 (Ref:3751530)   #26
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Nissan leaf has up to 30kWh battery. At 16 p per kWh, it'd cost £4.80 to charge it fully. Can do 107 miles on a charge say Nissan (lets bring it down to 100, because these numbers are never right). That makes it 4.8 p per mile.

Nissan Pulsar is around the same sized car. The most economic version is the 1.5 dCi. Nissan claim 74mpg, but real world reports are coming in at 58 mpg (which is still pretty good). Average price of diesel in the UK is 116.4 p per litre. The same 100 mile journey at 58 mpg, with fuel costing 116.4 p would cost you £9.12. That comes in at 9.1p per mile.

On your electricity cost, that makes the electric car half the price of the diesel for that journey. If you use a petrol Pulsar then the cost per mile rises to 13.2p per mile, and the gap is growing quickly.

It shouldn't be a surprise that it's cheaper to charge an electric car than fill one with petrol. The entire process of refining petrol, shipping it to petrol stations (which takes more petrol/diesel), and then running the petrol stations takes electricity and energy. So the companies providing this need to raise the price of their product to cope with these overheads. With a straight electric charge you cut out the refining, transportation and infrastructure costs which were inflating your petrol price, and get the electricity straight from the grid. You could argue the grid is an infrastructure cost, but you'd be paying that anyway since you live in a building with electricity, and you're still cutting out part of it as you're no longer funding others ability to pay for the grid. When you look at the bigger picture and the system as a whole, it makes sense that it's cheaper to charge an electric car.
If you take out the tax that only applies to fossil fuels (at the moment) how do the numbers look?

http://www.nextgreencar.com/car-tax/fuel-duty/


Nominally, using today's technology, the battery life for a Lithium battery is expected to be around 1000 charge cycles. It may be more. There is a chance that in some situations it may be less. Performance is very likely to degrade with time and number of charges but that may not be an issue here - nominally range would decline slowly

Using your Leaf figures (the Renault Zoe may do slightly better) 100 miles max per charge and 1000 charge cycles gives a useful life of 100k miles.

At that point one, presumably, scraps the car if the battery fails since replacements or exchanges for alternatives, if they exist, may not be cost effective ... but then things might change that would defer scrapping for another few years. Somehow I doubt it in the absence of retrofit autonomous capability.

Maybe fit a roll cage and go racing?

That said at the typical mileage that today's Leaf buyers might undertake the car could be over 20 years old by then ....

Batteries offer less benefits in colder climates and in colder weather although one can offset that by following the Norwegian model one assumes.

They are also somewhat challenged in hot climates, thus perhaps less desirable at any price south of the Pyrenees - which is a bit ironic given Spain's efforts with both wind and solar.

How that might effect deployment in, say, most of Africa might also be an interesting question.

If Nigeria takes on Shell's oil business as Shell pulls out and then transitions into a renewables company there may be strong resistance to going electric - even if at the same time solar panels have become so cheap and effective that they become a significant social changer in most of Africa where there is little or no existing infrastructure to oust.

Solar and batteries - but how to keep the batteries cool?

I recently read suggestions that no additional capacity is required to produce electricity for EVs since transitioning from ICE means the electricity consumption of refining plant reduces and with altered consumption in distribution, pretty much balances out the demand.

That may have some truth for countries with a lot of refining capability or excessive distribution costs.

However, seeking some numbers it became obvious that the bulk of refining energy is likely to come from internal sources (they are, after all, refining oil and making fuels, etc. ).

Large scale distribution of liquid fuels and gas is already piped in many places so in most of Europe the costs are reasonably controlled and probably on a par with building and maintaining an electricity grid.

Fast charging of a lot of EVs would almost certainly involve significant changes to the local distribution grids.

The National Grid predicts around 30% increase in demand for the electricity grid to achieve (from memory) circa 50% penetration of the transport demands. I can't recall if that included commercial and buses.

I would anticipate that most Governments and many car manufacturers are, at the moment, keen to see a rapid transition to electric powered vehicles. I therefore expect we will see legislation that reduced the advantages or convenience that fossil fuels appear to offer.

First they will come for diesel, as we have seen.

That will reduce the range advantage.

They can then make it more costly to run refuelling stations so that they become even fewer and further apart than they are now.

If they keep throughput capacity down they will start to match "recharging" times. Equality for all, business for the coffee shop.

I wonder if people might start to value the battery swapping concept at a premium price?
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 10:31 (Ref:3751600)   #27
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If you take out the tax that only applies to fossil fuels (at the moment) how do the numbers look?
Electricity is taxed in the UK. You pay tax on charging your electric vehicle. Saying "If you take out tax that only applies to fossil fuels" is a silly argument. That's basically saying "Well you are correct, but if you ignore the facts, you're wrong". The fact is, it's cheaper to charge your electric car than it is to fill your ICE car, quite easily.

It's a common misconception that green energy isn't taxed properly and is heavily subsidized. In reality, electricity is taxed no matter what generates it, and oil and gas subsidies outweigh green energy subsidies about 10 fold.

--------------

In terms of grid usage, it takes significantly more energy to refine petrol, transport it to the petrol stations and then support the infrastructure than it does to charge an electric car. You are at a net gain in electricity if everyone moved to an electric car. The grid needs to adapt to how and when it distributes the energy, but you actually use less. Again, we keep getting told to look at the bigger picture, and when you do, you realise you're actually cutting out a lot of energy intensive processes in this.

Battery lifespan is also reported incorrectly. Current Teslas are reporting around 80-90% retention of battery range after 100,000 miles. So if your Tesla was originally doing 300 miles on a charge, after 100,00 miles it's still doing 240 - 270 miles. That's better retention than most ICE cars will get. This shows that in general, the car will outlast a normal ICE car. There are exceptions to that of course, some VW TDIs will still be here when the sun collapses. The all those 1.4L Ford Fiestas? Mine has done 120,000 miles, and it's on its last legs. You can say "oh well the battery might fail". Yes, but equally my co-worker bought a second hand Mercedes in really good condition, 40k miles. Timing chain broke after a week and the entire car was scrapped. These things happen with ICE cars too - so why do we pretend it's exclusive to electric cars? It's almost like we're looking for excuses to hate them.

So if the car battery is outlasting the car, it's probably gone on through 4-5 owners similar to an ICE car. It's done its job and had a good life.

Whilst battery cooling is a problem, currently battery technology is well within its temperature limits. The panasonics in a Tesla could actually do 600 miles on a charge. They're just limited to avoid overheating problems.

What do we do when an ICE car is getting scrapped? Take it to the scrapyard and destroy it. What do we do when an electric car is getting scrapped? Presumably we set the local nursery on fire and fuel it with burning babies. I mean it's so absolutely impossible to use batteries again, and dispose of them, the world is going to end when we use electric cars right?

Or we could do what Toyota does and repurpose them for a longer life. Electric car batteries are extremely useful even when they do not have enough performance to run a vehicle (which is VERY energy heavy). There are still plenty of uses for them, especially as backups and daytime storage systems.

Electric cars will not save the world and are not perfect at absolutely everything. But they are a significant improvement in many ways.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 12:01 (Ref:3751626)   #28
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You are the man, Akrapovic!

I spent a couple of years listening to my Tesla owning friend, who spends a lot of time in the USA (and has been to the factory several times), and then decided most of the arguments I could think of for not owning an electric car had been answered. To me, it's a bit like buying a new phone or computer- if you keep waiting for the next level of technology, you'll never get one......

The re-cycling of 'used' batteries for storage, emergency or otherwise, is great and I'm sure will be increasingly adopted as the batteries become available. At the moment the USA is probably the only country where it can happen, due to their early adoption of hybrid and electric cars.

As an aside, Tesla will be announcing an electric HGV before too long, and Mitsubushi already have a small Canter truck with up to 60 mile range. Can't wait to see a full sized artic with pure electric tractor!
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 12:29 (Ref:3751652)   #29
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Been looking at small campervans recently - there's a company selling an Electric campervan based on a Nissan E/NV 200 van.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 13:00 (Ref:3751671)   #30
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This is all well and good, but some of the most polluting transporters are ships and aircraft. And neither of those categories are ever (well, not in our lifetimes, anyway) likely to be powered by anything else than fossil based fuels.
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