Race control to race car radio communications.

[SWCRacing]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

maybe the system may allow the SC driver to have a two way link to talk back to the following pack with instructions.

Absolutely against the Blue Book!!! This system (or others like it are only allowed if they are under the direct control of the Clerk of the Course.

And once again, the costs I quoted were straight from the horses mouth - £150 for each receiver, PLUS £2,000 for the base station etc.

[Pistol Pete]

I have listened to Legends raceceiver output many times & it does work very well for them, I am not convinced it would be a benefit for us though.

On a short oval, all of the cars are very close together & their is no run off. Therefore when there is contact a significant percentage of the track can be blocked. Other cars, at race speed have no where to go (other than the wall!), hence full course cautions are very common. At times, it does seem to be used alot more for structuring the restart than for bringing speeds down though.

On a short oval, 1 person in race control can see the entire track & can quickly decide if/what the drivers need informed (though spotters alongside are an advantage). This must be consistent and minimal otherwise drivers will complain about being distracted. On a long track, we would be reliant on individual marshal posts to make a decision (& pass that on to race control to then feed to drivers 30 seconds after an incident occurs?).

On a long track it is alot easier to see flag marshals than on a short oval, where they are generally lacking at the best of times.

On a short oval, you may tell every driver about an incident at the same time & they will all have to take avoiding action within 20 seconds, on a long track, it could be 2-3 minutes until a driver is actually at an incident, by which time it could have cleared, or at least the situation changed.


If the only advantage to running a raceceiver is to inform drivers of a black flag or safety car period, then, in my opinion, better flagging (or maybe better communication from race control to marshal posts) would be as useful. It wouldn't be the first time I lapped Brands with SC boards on 1/2 the first half of the circuit & not on the 2nd half (for 2 laps!!).

Also, Des Chandler (who imports raceceiver) is safety concious enough than I'm not convinced he is out to put a massive markup on them, I think he would rather do everything he can to improve safety.

Just my 2p.

Pete

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Yes but as we have seen time and time and time again they don't even if they do in the heat of the moment things can get ignored, there was no extra charge on entries mentioned that was presumably covered by the £150 for the units, if you see the deal from the states they get the base unit free if they buy enough of the drivers units. Another incident I saw at our Lydden Festival that resulted in two cars getting badly damaged when Les Nash's engine exploded and covered the track in oil, a quick warning for all drivers to excercise caution would have saved the two cars going off and ramming each other or at least it would have saved the 2nd one going in as thats what did the damage. Yes oil flags could have been deployed but invariably you are on the hazard before you see them this would have been an advance warning to all to slow down approaching the hairpin.

Terry maybe the system may allow the SC driver to have a two way link to talk back to the following pack with instructions.

Not sure that the weigh ankers would like being told to get thier finger out because they are EXTENDING the SC intervention period Al.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Absolutely against the Blue Book!!! This system (or others like it are only allowed if they are under the direct control of the Clerk of the Course.

And once again, the costs I quoted were straight from the horses mouth - £150 for each receiver, PLUS £2,000 for the base station etc.

Presumably you are in radio contact with the tower so your observations can soon be relayed to the drivers via the race control.

So dont the long circuit legends use this kit?

[terence]

The SC crew are in constant touch with RC,bearing in mind that there are some circuits/instances where there is no monitor coverage of the circuit.Anyone driving in a manor that doe's not conform to reg's get's reported.It all comes down to the longer these people take to get themselves sorted,the longer the SC is on circuit,which is robbing those who do as they should, of valuable circuit time. We do not get a shout if it is not absolutely necessary.
One other point to consider is that of driver concentration.While most would no doubt be OK with someone suddenly talking to them,there is a slight risk that perhaps a lesser skilled driver could be distracted,if he then doe's something silly,who get's the blame?

[Ian Sowman]

It is used by long circuit Legends, yes.

[Al Weyman]

And how does that work out?

[Timmyevo6]

speaking from a rookies point of view, in the race series i run in, there are a great percentage of drivers out there who struggle enough with simply driving around the circuit.

Try adding to that, a little voice in their ear, it'd be a seriously bad idea to start with, BUT they'd get used to it.

I believe that it should be manditory for all cars to have CoC to driver radio's.

1 of my team mates had his car written off by a fellow driver because the other chap had 'brake issues' and was driving around the middle of the circuit, half way down coppers straight, he turned hard left and smashed into my mate. I understand that he should of been using his mirrors, i understand that the CoC should of called him into his office to explain, BUT that didn't happen. the result was, my mates civic is written off and the guys impreza needs a new track rod end!

If there had been CoC to driver radio's, i beleive they would of contacted him to explain his reasons for driving slowly, then he'd of been talked off the circuit at a safe point, not been a BELLEND and simply decided half way around he might not make the pits, then turn into my mate.

i'd be happy to pay £150 a season plus a share of £2'000 if it prevents ONE incident like the above.

just my thoughts.

[Timmyevo6]

also, anyone know if this is an option for any series of race? or how is it worked out who gets offered it??

[AndyV]

So a minority accidentally miss or ignore flag signals or forget/get confused/ignore regulations so the majority has to suffer a levy to account for someone else’s carelessness.

There is already a proven flag system in place for communicating with drivers and we sign a declaration every year on our licence application that our eyes work well enough to see flags and are able to look in front of our cars for oncoming situations. There is no need for another system, enforce the penalties for transgressors (word of the moment) and leave the innocent alone.

It is as easy to ignore/miss a radio signal as it is a flag, easier in fact as ‘technical issues’ are common. I can see the transcript now:

CoC: All drivers there is oil spill and debris at turn 6.
Driver 50: am busy right now, please repeat.
CoC: All drivers there is oil spill and debris at turn 6.
Driver 32: was that all divas there is an osprey dead with torniquet? please repeat
Coc: OIL SPILL AT TURN 6
Driver 69: ooh oil spill, which one is turn 6?
CoC: driver 27, why are you slowing please return to racing speed.
Driver 27: sorry CoC just trying to get the car quiet enough to hear signals and read map to find which is turn 6.
CoC: All drivers, please confirm oil spill warning fully recieved and understood.
Driver 32: that osprey still in trouble under its hood?
CoC: where did we put all those old flags?

Andy

[Stephen Green]

On the basis that radio communication would be Race Control to driver with no ability to reply, your scenario wouldn't happen.

Personally I think it's a good idea and having marshalled many Legends races I can see it works well. The cost factor is probably not as bad as you think, assuming the organising club have the base station, then the cost per driver as a 'one off' fee would be very small. Let's say the first meeting of the year there are 5 series racing each with 20 car grids, that's 100 drivers sharing a one off £2,000 which in my calculation works out to £20 per driver. Therefore your one off fee would be about £170?

As someone who has on many occasions been the Safety Car Observer (the bloke in the passenger seat scared to death) I can assure you there is regular contact between the SC and Race Control, usually reporting to each other every other marshals post. The SC Observer is given instructions whether to increase or decrease speed in order to bunch the field, and is also told when to go trackside and when to leave the track. As others have siad, if all drivers were to bunch up during SC periods it would give you a slight advantage on the restart and also make it easier for marshals and recovery crews to work on the live circuit.

[Al Weyman]

Look lets name names here I am sure they won't mind. This was an offer from the BARC to the CTCRC and others were no doubt offered it I am sure and was annouced at our AGM with little or no interest however I would say a lot of the members are older guys and I have to say technophobes and dont even own computers as I found out when I suggested we stop sending out newsletters and magazines and do everything via email to save a lot of time and money. I am the opposite and love this sort of technology, look at the picture of my Talbot Ti in the Road Saloon thread and you will see I had a working hands free CB based system in the 80's, (kept picking up them damned truckers though, 1-9 for a Gay Trucker coming over the radio can be a bit off putting as you approach Coram!). It was a one off £150 for the drivers equipment and that equipment was warrantied, that was it, no further costs to anyone was mentioned, not for the base station or nothing else and as Stephen stated its one way only Control to driver. Another concideration is prehaps its getting a bit harder to get marshals for a variety of reasons and just maybe with this system in place it may be feasable to run a meeting whilst being a tad on the light side on the marshalling front.

[SWCRacing]

Al, I'm sorry but I am going to have to correct you again. I was at the Driver's Rep meeting at Thruxton when this was raised, by the Driver's Rep for the Legends at the start of the meeting. The costs were stated as £150 per receiver and £2,000 per base station etc. FACT!!

This is the second year where this system has been mentioned at this meeting by the Rep for the Legends. It was in no way an offer from BARC, it was a suggestion from the Legend's Rep for other championships to consider using. The majority who I spoke to were not interested because of cost and the fact that their is already a system that , in the main, works. The championship that I race in is not interested in it.

I too have both driven safety cars and done the observers job. I am also a competitor, and your worst nightmare, a Clerk. In my personal opinon, if drivers did what they were meant to do, the perceived problems with safety car deployment would not exist.

[Stephen Green]

I don't think many of us would disagree with you on that front but life isn't always so simple sadly. On the matter of cost, surely only one base station is required in which case my figures would be pretty accurate?

[Woolley]

I'm in favour of a general review of race coms anyway, and the irony of this is that drivers would probably be better informed than the marshals!

I can't see any disadvantage in providing more information other than the potential cost and what happens if it fails for some reason. Anything broadcast has to be considered as in addition to normal signals not instead of. If the marshals' posts could be hooked up to receive as well, it could have even greater benefits for deployment of SC, reds, oil/surface warnings for the better safety and efficiency of all.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Al, I'm sorry but I am going to have to correct you again. I was at the Driver's Rep meeting at Thruxton when this was raised, by the Driver's Rep for the Legends at the start of the meeting. The costs were stated as £150 per receiver and £2,000 per base station etc. FACT!!

This is the second year where this system has been mentioned at this meeting by the Rep for the Legends. It was in no way an offer from BARC, it was a suggestion from the Legend's Rep for other championships to consider using. The majority who I spoke to were not interested because of cost and the fact that their is already a system that , in the main, works. The championship that I race in is not interested in it.

I too have both driven safety cars and done the observers job. I am also a competitor, and your worst nightmare, a Clerk. In my personal opinon, if drivers did what they were meant to do, the perceived problems with safety car deployment would not exist.

Sorry I will have to correct you back, this was nothing to do with legends it was something that was put to the membership of CTCRC via BARC and the fee stated was £150 per driver unit, no mention of chipping in for the base station which I would assume would be paid for by BARC. This was the figures given, no extras above that and in anycase why would the drivers have to chip in for the base station as the BARC would own it and presumably use it at every meeting the same as they would own two way radios and copiers etc.

[Piglet]

OK Race control bod here. Whilst I can see some advantage to a way of communicating with drivers in my view we already have such a system with flags and boards.

If we go down this route, it will take yet another communications bod in race control and that requires more volunteers. You'd need someone with a decent skill level to run such a network, radio comms isn't as easy as it appears and you need someone who understands exactly what they ought to be communicating to whom and when so that messages are passed quickly and appropriately. Clubs will struggle to locate sufficient people to do this week in week out at meetings and done badly, radio comms are a nightmare.

Then...what are we going to tell drivers? Are we going to tell them about track defects? We presumably tell drivers about big oil slicks, but do we tell them about small ones? We tell them about large amounts of gravel on circuit but do we tell them every lap that there is gravel at Paddock Hill? What about circuits like Brands GP where the topography makes radio comms around the circuit difficult?

What happens when we don't tell drivers about something? Perhaps a big oil spill because race control don't know about it? What is our level of liability then? and when we're short on post, is the marshal going to try to radio/phone the issue through to RC or is he/she just going to bung out a slippery surface flag.

In my personal view, we have a system of communication, we have regulations that tell drivers how they ought to drive and respond to those flag signals. It's not perfect by any means and whilst the ability to yell "WTF do you think you're doing" at a driver mid lap might be very theraputic - I'm not convinced on the benefits of the system.

I'd rather see investment in a decent system of light panels to enable us to put flag signals in places where drivers can see them.

Alternatively, I like the idea of a motorway style text board above the starting gantry imagine it....."number 42 you are driving like a muppet"

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by AndyV

Stuff in post 35
Andy

Most sensible post on here so far.

[tristancliffe]

Agreed Piglet. The flags system is tried and tested and, although not perfect, has a pretty high 'success rate'. Sure, sometimes you don't see them because you're in a racing situation, or because of spray, or because the marshals posts are stupid sited. But overall they work. High (Variable?) Intensity light boards would improve it, although I think a lot of yellow flags this year were much brighter - new spec? Or just new? Or just me noticing how bright they are?

Having one-way radio contact might help now and again. But it'll distract people, suffer problems, and probably rarely tell the drivers something they didn't already know from the flag signals.

The sudden slowing from safety car deployment could be helped by a) larger SC boards so that you can't miss them (perhaps reflective or backlit or with huge neon arrows pointing at them), and telling drivers to slow gradually, rather than seeing the board and instantly hitting the brakes (perhaps).

99% of the time there aren't any problems. I'm not sure that radio comms will help much in that 1% zone.

[SWCRacing]

Al, please don't think I am picking on you, but your driver's reps were at the same meeting as I was!!!! What I have said is FACT! Also in attendance at that meeting were reps from the Caterham Grads, Westfields, MGOC, Clubmans and a few others. The £2,000 cost of the base station was mentioned, and given that BARC normally have three meetings per weekend, that is a cost of £6,000. It only works if EVERY BARC championship agrees to use the system, that way costs can be diluted. All it takes is one (of many) that are not interested and one club is picking up the bill.

Piglet, the raceiver system does not need any more people in Race Control, as under the regulations it is under the sole control of the Clerk of the Course. The Radio Controler still does their job, so do the race phones people, it just gives the Clerk direct contact with the drivers, nothing more.

I can see it's merits, I also understand it's downsides. And I am still of the opinion that it is not necessary, and is an additional expense which competitors can do without in these economic times.

The lines of communication between Race Control, the marshals and thus the drivers are well established and proven.

And as for a signal to a driver that they are driving like a muppet, isn't that the universal handsignal that resembles what Gareth Hunt used to do in the Nescafe advert all those years ago??

[Tim Falce]

Here's a simple way to save drivers £150+ and clubs £2K+.
1. Observers should do their jobs properly.
2. Flag marshals should do their jobs properly.
3. Drivers should pay ****ing attention to what's going on around them and read the finals and act on signals given.

I think 1 and 2 don't need any improvement apart from perhaps larger, clearer car number boards for black flags. That leaves No.3 which we all know is woeful.

[roys1]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

larger, clearer car number boards for black flags. .

Tim.. The numbers I use are 10" race numbers on a Black background that covers 2 rungs of a standard race board.. AND still drivers miss them and/or ignore them.. quoting they never saw them or the black flag..
But yet they see the chequered flag that is given from the same position...

The radio system does work.. It's normally between the permanent clerk and the cars.. It is used very well by Steve Hill (legends) and Julian Floyd (funcup)

I agree it is costly though..

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by roys1

Tim.. The numbers I use are 10" race numbers on a Black background that covers 2 rungs of a standard race board.. AND still drivers miss them and/or ignore them.. quoting they never saw them or the black flag..
But yet they see the chequered flag that is given from the same position...

10 inches may seem big in certain circumstances but when you are doing anything up to 130mph or more (I wish) they are difficult to see and often not shown in a prominent position and could even be partially obscured by the flag itself.

It happened at Cadwell once to my mate, he can't see very far at the best of times and on this occasion he splattered the resident Moorhen across the front of his car about 100 yards before the start line. As he went past he noticed a black flag with a number on it, feeling guilty about the fowl death he had committed on track he pulled off next time round, spent an age looking for the CoC only to be told it wasn't his number they were holding out.

I also saw the flag and board and couldn't read the number and my eyesight was quite good. They can leave a lot to be desired on occasions but I still don't think it warrants further expenditure where it isn't required, I'd rather chip in for some new number boards and flags.

[Al Weyman]

Al, please don't think I am picking on you, but your driver's reps were at the same meeting as I was!!!! What I have said is FACT! Also in attendance at that meeting were reps from the Caterham Grads, Westfields, MGOC, Clubmans and a few others. The £2,000 cost of the base station was mentioned, and given that BARC normally have three meetings per weekend, that is a cost of £6,000. It only works if EVERY BARC championship agrees to use the system, that way costs can be diluted. All it takes is one (of many) that are not interested and one club is picking up the bill.

Look lets get this straight, I was not at any meeting just at the club AGM and this is what was offered, £150 and no talk whatsoever about chipping in £2k for a base station. Now that fact may not have been relayed to us but I am just stating how it was told to the membership. Now whether we were misinformed or not I really don't know but all I all saying is what we were told, also didnt someone say earlier that the base station comes as a freebie if enough units are purchased if so where is the extra money required?

Now I am in the sign business and I can assure you a great big gantry hung editable illuminated sign above the start/finish straight where as I would love to see it is going to cost many more thousands than this. And as for holding the race controller liable if he failed to spot something well of course we wouldnt same as the two drivers who nigh on totalled two cars at Lydden as the oil flag was NOT deployed fast enough despite me and a mate screaming at them in the stand. Also the slow car on track white flag was NOT deployed at Brands when two of our cars were totalled as the marshal was trying his damndest to get the idiot driver to pull off the circuit and I have that on video but no one is suing anyone s**t happens it doesnt mean we are going to sue.

[terence]

A far simpler/cheaper method regarding Black flags would be for a decent sized illuminated board to be shown at the start/finish line.Provision could be made for whatever other flags were being shown at any other time,ie,red/yellow flashing for oil etc etc.