Race control to race car radio communications.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Piglet, the raceiver system does not need any more people in Race Control, as under the regulations it is under the sole control of the Clerk of the Course. The Radio Controler still does their job, so do the race phones people, it just gives the Clerk direct contact with the drivers, nothing more.

I suspect it depends what you run, where and with whom, I know in our organisation we would struggle to run another radio system without an additional resource. You'd need to ensure that a full log was kept of all transmissions and as Clerk I wouldn't want to be having to run a driver radio as well as oversee incidents, think about medical intervention, run a safety car radio etc.

Al (sorry can't manage the multiple quotes!), sadly people will sue, it won't necessarily be you, but if you get totalled in a race accident you can bet your arse that your life insurers will be looking to recoup their outlay from somewhere. There are a number of cases that have been brought in recent years, not by the family of those killed but by the insurers. Sadly where there is any hint of blame there will be a claim and that's the reality organisers work with.

I really do think flag posts are often not in positions where drivers will see them, that's clearly because they have soft squishy marshals in them who need to be removed from the vulnerable positions and IMV light boards would be a good solution.

(I know motorway signs would be expensive and I'm joking about one...but it would be fun!)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Piglet

(I know motorway signs would be expensive and I'm joking about one...but it would be fun!)

Yes, we could have messages such as Think, Don't use the phone while driving, or Fog or even Be Safe, Don't Speed.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Yes, we could have messages such as Think,

Think??!! Racing drivers??

(with apologies for the shameless hacking of your post in the interests of a cheap shot )

[Tainan]

Anyone ignoring a black flag, could just as easily ignore a radio instruction - "sorry, earpiece fell out", "my hearing's not what it used to be", etc. Far more opportunity to 'misunderstand' radio communications, than flag signals.
If there's oil on the track, I'd rather the marshall got the flag out asap. If I've got to wait for him to call race control, and for race control to then send out a radio signal, there's a far higher chance I'll have found the oil already. Add the possibility that race control can't properly hear the marshall because of noisy cars passing, and he needs to repeat the message. Even on a small circuit, where race control have good visibility, surely a marshall, who's only monitoring a short section of track, will respond faster than a CoC who's got plenty of other jobs to do, the possibility of interruption in race control, and needs to watch the entire circuit at once.
If there's money to burn, then do as others have said, and improve the current system with well positioned light signals etc.

[Al Weyman]

Tainan you are assuming the radio replaces the marshals and flags, no one is suggesting that, this is in addition to and as such I fail to see Piglets aprehension that he may get sued if the existing system is still in place, sorry. If we did away with whats in place to use this then I would agree with you but the idea of this is to enhance what we already had and I feel it would be benificial and I would like to try it. How could an ambulance lawyer build a case against you when you have added a safety feature to what you already have in place. Maybe they might if its not implemented when it could be?

[aland]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

3. Drivers should pay ****ing attention to what's going on around them and read the finals and act on signals given.
.

tim, you know as well as i do there is far too many drivers that take little notice of flags expecially the yellow one, i agree wityh the points about an illuminated sign on the startline with numbers for black flags and driving standards flags. with the yellow i would like to see drivers severely reprimanded for misbehaving like overtaking under a yellow or evem worse making contact under a yellow. we dont mind going out onto a live track, it is part of the job and i reckon in the orange babygro and hi-vis coat stevie wonder could see us yet there is certain drivers who seem not to give a **** about the flag or us. those are the guys i want to see *******ed

as for the radio system, good idea but i dont think it is needed

[SWCRacing]

aland,
If drivers understood what the recommended MSA penalty for ignoring flag signals is, they would take MUCH, more notice of them. There are always mitigating factors that can be taken into account in the Clerk reaching his decision. But you have to remember that most clerks have heard all the excuses many times over..

Another factor that would focus driver's attentions would be to read what the maximum fine is that can be imposed on them for breach of the regulations. Anyone want to hazard a guess what it is for a National B race with a MSA Steward?

[Al Weyman]

Dunno but if it was too much I would imagine people would just walk. As I said I got (IMHO) unfairly fined a hundred quid once for not obeying a black flag call in but I swear to this day I never saw the flag so if I am in a LHD car and the flag is in a silly place and I genuinely dont see it why should I be fined? I was blacked flagged for dropping fuel and if i had known of course I would have stopped immediately. I walked away from the sport for a long time over it (and subsequent other reasons).

[SWCRacing]

I'll leave the question open until someone comes up with the answer! It will probably amaze most drivers (it did me!!).

And as for flag posts being in silly positions, they are placed where the MSA Tech department or FIA say they should be when the track licence is approved

[aland]

swc/al i am not in favour personally of fining drivers in cash as budgets are hard enough to get. a more suitable punishment would be spending a day with us on post. call it a form of community service. thats my opinion folks

[Al Weyman]

I agree why on earth should an amatuer sports person be fined whilst participating in an amatuer sport. I have no problem with licence endorsement but a fine is ridiculous especially if it is out of your control and incidently the flag position was moved shortly afterwards as far as I am aware but of course if I had a radio it wouldnt have happened simple as that it would just have been 'Come in car 26 your time is up'!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

aland,
Another factor that would focus driver's attentions would be to read what the maximum fine is that can be imposed on them for breach of the regulations. Anyone want to hazard a guess what it is for a National B race with a MSA Steward?

£750

[v8dave]

I fail to see how the radios improve upon the existing flag system.

Also, I can hear all the radio message missed excuses now...
Sorry the ear piece fell out me ear.
Sorry the ear piece lead came out of the radio
Sorry I turned it off by accident
I forgot to charge the battery
My battery when flat

Need I go on?

On the plus side though the drivers briefing would be easy, we can be anywhere at the circuit as long as our radio is on - not more standing in the wind/sun/rain/snow outside race control. It would mean the clerks paperwork stayed dry too !!

And another thing - why is a receiver £150 when I can buy a pair of two way radios from amazon for £19.99 ?

[Al Weyman]

I fail to see how the radios improve upon the existing flag system.

Also, I can hear all the radio message missed excuses now...
Sorry the ear piece fell out me ear.
Sorry the ear piece lead came out of the radio
Sorry I turned it off by accident
I forgot to charge the battery
My battery when flat

Need I go on?

No, because as has been said it was not planned to replace anything, just suppliement.

[diz]

Originally Posted by roys1

Tim.. The numbers I use are 10" race numbers on a Black background that covers 2 rungs of a standard race board..

I assume that 10" race numbers are the black ones, as required by the Blue Book and stand out very well on your black background.

Seriously though, I am in favour. I got a very experienced FF1600 driver to test one of Steve Hill's units at a test day last Saturday. This driver is now all in favour of raceiver.

As for the flag or audio argument. The raceiver would supplement the flags, not replace them - surely this is a good thing.
So if a driver didn't see a flag, he could hear about it. If he failed to hear about it, he could see the flag. If he had no knowedge of either, then gawd help us all.

Why assume the club will need to buy the base units? Surely the circuits should purchase one and leave it permanently in Race Control. That would be seen as a nice contribution to improve safety at their venue and at two grand, not a major expense for them.

Don't necessarily assume each driver would have to stump up £150 either. Why couldn't each circuit have a supply of - say - 50 units, [ £7500 outlay ] available. The units are small and are quickly clipped onto your overalls.
As each track session is completed, the units are 'handed in' at Parc Ferme and immediately transferred to the Assembly Area for the drivers in the following track session.
Assume an average entry of 150 cars at a meeting, that is a cost of £50 per car at the first meeting of the season.
Let's say that a small fee is charged of maybe a fiver. After ten meetings the units are paid for and no fee is charged thereafter. [adjust these numbers if a larger pool of units is deemed necessary]

All a driver would need to fund is his own personal ear piece. He could use his IPod earpiece, or buy a £10 set, or even go for the £60 dogs danglies earpiece. The choice is his.

These are just my personal thoughts and not made with any official hat on.

[Al Weyman]

Nice to hear positive comments from someone who has actually tried the system. There is a lot of negative posts hear comparing the units with some tat you could buy from ebay for a tenner both comparing price and performance but it appears to me these seem to be a proper piece of kit probably on a designated waveband and not a CB band and so they should be at the money.

[SWCRacing]

Tim, spot on for 2010! You would get the prize if there was one!

aland, sorry, but where is that penalty allowed to be imposed in the blue book? Can't impose it if it doesn't exist. But I do agree with you, in my opinion drivers should spend a day on the bank, and at least half a day in Race Control in order to renew their licence. That would at least open their eyes to the amount of effort and work it takes by volunteers for them to do what they enjoy

diz, who would going to collect the receivers in Parc Ferme and run them down to assembley before the next race is going to the grid? Most timetables are pretty tight and I don't think this would ever happen because of this

Al, a fine is only one option open to the Clerks for a penalty, reprimand, written reprimand, fine, time or place penalty, Exclusion from practice, race or heat or Exclusion from the meeting. How would you deal with someone who had overtaken under yellows twice at the same place whilst there were EIGHT marshals trackside dealing with an incident?

[Tracksa]

I can see that you are discussing how to be sure that the drivers sees the flag, take a look at this site

http://www.tracksa.com/Product/MainP...S/Default.aspx

There is also a video from Anderstorp raceway that shows this live, follow this link:

http://www.tracksa.com/LinkClick.asp...language=en-US

Best regards

Frode

[v8dave]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

There is a lot of negative posts hear comparing the units with some tat you could buy from ebay for a tenner both comparing price and performance but it appears to me these seem to be a proper piece of kit probably on a designated waveband and not a CB band and so they should be at the money.

Al

As far as I can find out the radios use the top end of the government licensed PMR band at about 456 MHz. Plenty of high quality equipment is available for less than these one use only receivers. If I got one and opened it up I would expect I would find the basic chip that a two way set uses but with no componentry to transmit a signal.
And when the battery wears out after a few years I bet I'll have to buy a new unit because it has not been designed to be repaired, assuming of course that the government has not forced us to change frequencies before that.
My objection is to the reinvention of technology and equipment that already exists and works, tailoring it to a small market place only pushes up the cost. Do we need a Ferrari when a Ford Fiesta will do?

The obvious comparison is with timing transponders, before we had them the time keepers managed. Now the secretary has to get the transponder number of every competitor so the timekeepers can preset the information in their system*, Then there are those that don't have a transponder, or forget to bring it, or forget to charge it. They add nothing to me as a driver, I still have to have numbers so the observers can identify me.

As I said yesterday - I fail to see how the radios improve on the flag system - and yes I realise they are a suppliment not a replacement which is what to my mine makes them so worthless.



* I suspect they just type in the car numbers the first time people come round - apologies if that's unfair.

[diz]

I believe the raceiver units have a choice of 1600 frequencies. All the drivers would be on the same one.
They run off 2 x AAA batteries

[Tim Falce]

So I expect they'll wok for about 10-15 minutes before the batteries go flat.

[Al Weyman]

Why is that then does a radio reciever use that much power when its not used as a transmitter?

Re. the transponders, so you never get home and go on line and look at the results or at results on line at a meeting you can't make or are keeping an eye on, I do all the time and I think it has added a great dimension to the sport.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Why is that then does a radio reciever use that much power when its not used as a transmitter?

Re. the transponders, so you never get home and go on line and look at the results or at results on line at a meeting you can't make or are keeping an eye on, I do all the time and I think it has added a great dimension to the sport.

What has going online to look at results got to do with transponders? You were one of the most vocal people on here when it came to the expense of transponders, what's made you change sides on the spending other people's money front?

[Al Weyman]

And Frode I darn't ask what that little lot comes to but would hazard a guess a lot more than a few radios!

[Tracksa]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And Frode I darn't ask what that little lot comes to but would hazard a guess a lot more than a few radios!

yes thats right, a little bit more, there is a lot of ways to do this, tracksa is one of them.