Race control to race car radio communications.

[terence]

These radios are all well and good,providing that the driver being repremanded for whatever actually knows his race number!!
Actually,that seems a little like I'm implying that there are some out there who are not totally in touch with thier brain.
Transponders,now that could be the answer,no fines,no wasting of the CoCs time,you dont do as your supposed,your transponder gets ignored!

[stroller]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Transponders,now that could be the answer,no fines,no wasting of the CoCs time,you dont do as your supposed,your transponder gets ignored!

Fairly simple answer, unfortunately that doesn't help a possible worse case scenario e.g Driver continually ignores/doesn't see a black or black and orange flag and eventually causes a fatal accident. When the facts appear in the Coroners Court, the possible implications for all concerned don't bear thinking about if it could be shown that a better means of communication was available.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by stroller

Fairly simple answer, unfortunately that doesn't help a possible worse case scenario e.g Driver continually ignores/doesn't see a black or black and orange flag and eventually causes a fatal accident. When the facts appear in the Coroners Court, the possible implications for all concerned don't bear thinking about if it could be shown that a better means of communication was available.

Scare mongering at its best!!!

There are often better methods of doing things, it doesn't mean that one is negligent for not using them.

We have a proven method of communicating. If a driver ignores a black flag and causes an accident (that is linked to the reason for the black flag) the driver would be negligent for having not seen signals displayed within the regulations prescribed by the governing body.

[stroller]

Originally Posted by Piglet

We have a proven method of communicating. If a driver ignores a black flag and causes an accident (that is linked to the reason for the black flag) the driver would be negligent for having not seen signals displayed within the regulations prescribed by the governing body.

Scare mogering probably,but from Al Weymans posts earlier in this thread, would you ask him if he considered himself negligent for missing a black flag ?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by stroller

Scare mogering probably,but from Al Weymans posts earlier in this thread, would you ask him if he considered himself negligent for missing a black flag ?

Very few people consider themselves negligent in any given situation. It's not about whether we consider ourselves negligent - that's a question for a Judge to make.

Negligence is based on a duty of care and whether there is a breach of that duty and whether that breach causes damage to others - if it was simple lawyers wouldn't spend a lot of time arguing about the concept!

[Al Weyman]

I was at one of the CTCRC races at Mallory this year and a well known Jag driver was racing a Mk2 Escort that was spewing out oil yet for lap after lap he didnt pull over eventually getting the flag a total of 7 times. Now this guy is an experinced driver who races in Masters etc. and can handle a car and yet he choose to ignore or simply didnt see it and I cannot believe he deliberately ignored it knowing the circumstances.

[v8dave]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I was at one of the CTCRC races at Mallory this year and a well known Jag driver was racing a Mk2 Escort that was spewing out oil yet for lap after lap he didnt pull over eventually getting the flag a total of 7 times.

I was at a 750 MC meeting at Mallory and it seemed like non of their championships managed 7 laps with out getting red flagged - but that could be me memory failing

[terence]

Ninety percent of the observations that have been spoken about on here all point to one thing,the lack of drivers awareness whilst racing.I really do not see that "not see-ing " ANY flag as being a reasonable excuse,no matter who the driver might be.

[Al Weyman]

Well it seems that BARC and other clubs are aware of this and prehaps see the radios as a way of addressing the problem which other methods thus far have not been successful. I think another thing which would be a good idea is as I understand it the black flag is only shown in one spot so make sure where it is to be displayed is clearly shown in final instructions. I got black flagged at Silverstone and it was plain and clear to see and of course I responed immediately why would'nt I the thing may have been on fire, not sure why I never saw it at Donington but when I asked was told it was deployed at the chichane???

[SWCRacing]

Now I'm getting angry!

Firstly, it is not BARC that are pushing this product, it is the guy that runs the Legends. Go to the Raceceiver UK website and you will see this!! They / him are making a mint out of anyone who buys this system!! $125 in the USA, £150 in the UK!!! You do the sums!!!!

And as for not knowing where the Black flag is displayed, I respectfully suggest that as, you seem to have forgotten, you attend a new driver briefing at the next race you enter!! This is mentioned in them!!!! Black flag and Black and orange flag are always displayed from the Start line!!!!!

[Al Weyman]

Oh calm down now you will do yourself a mischief. I told you before it was the BARC that suggested it to us and what has attending a new drivers meeting got to do with it when I have raced at every circuit in the country apart from Anglesey. I attended several drivers meetings this year when asked to and do not recall just one telling guys where the black flag would be shown.

[terence]

Seeing as its obviously the MSAs fault for only showing the Black Flag on the start/finish line,what about a black board displaying the offending cars number at EVERY Marshal's post? Miss that and the promise of being shot once the car has run out of fuel.







[Just thought of something,isn't there some sort of mention about the Black Flag in the blue Book?]

[SWCRacing]

Regulation A(a)28 in the 2009 book or Regulation E2.3.2 in the 2010 book deal with what equipment and flags are on specific Marshal posts.

Al, don't get annoyed when you get fined or worse for ignoring flag signals in the future.

When you sign on at an event you confirm that you understand the regulations and will abide by them. Obviously, there are a lot of people who don't understand them!!

I can never understand people saying that they haven't read the Blue Book. You don't have to read it all, just the parts that apply to the particular discipline that you are competing in!! It's not exactly "War and Peace"!!!!

[Al Weyman]

I didn't ignore it, I didnt see it, there is a mile of difference. I race by the rules and always have and if I had seen it I would have pulled straight off even for no other reason than self preservation! I was black flagged once and the thing was on fire under the bonnet but I was unaware.

[JohnD]

In my experience (silencer fallen off) of being black and orange flagged, the 'showing' was from the pit wall, not the starter's podium, against the sun, with a black flag smaller than normal and a pair of numbers that were as small as those on a small pit board. Time keepers aparrently need numbers on the cars that are 23cms high, but drivers are expected to recognise much smaller figures.
No, I didn't see, until I had been around three times, but the conditions of the showing didn't wash with the CofC, who wouldn't sign my card, but at least he didn't give me an endorsement.
So radio sounds like a good idea, but much cheaper would be an illuminated display board, Motorway style, at the start line. "Come in, No.X, your time is up!"

John

[Al Weyman]

Glad to here I aint the only blind one out there!

[westfieldbend]

Bike's do black flags and black and orange flags at every post (BSB and WSB) and i have seen bemsee having the flags at a second marshal post, graham hill at brands hatch, so anyone can go straight up the back entrance to the pits. They also have big number boards for these on a sort of flip chart thing which is obviously easier to see and use. These are also used to display a '0' signal on the lap the safety car is coming in (they use safety car flags as well).

[johnw]

Sounds a great idea from the bikes.

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by westfieldbend

Bike's do black flags and black and orange flags at every post (BSB and WSB) and i have seen bemsee having the flags at a second marshal post, graham hill at brands hatch, so anyone can go straight up the back entrance to the pits. They also have big number boards for these on a sort of flip chart thing which is obviously easier to see and use. These are also used to display a '0' signal on the lap the safety car is coming in (they use safety car flags as well).

This sounds great but bike meetings must attract more flag marshals than car meetings. The great majority of meetings where I am flag marshal are single- manned points. I don't see how a lone flag marshal can manipulate the flip chart, hold the black flag and still be able to show the other flags - remembering that he/she already needs to be looking both ways to correctly react to both blue and yellow situations. Comments about needing eyes in your backside will be ignored!

Of course it could be just me that always gets put on their own for some reason.........................?

[Al Weyman]

And the shortage of marshals is why I think the radios could prove very useful as I said a few posts back.

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by Gerryc

This sounds great but bike meetings must attract more flag marshals than car meetings. The great majority of meetings where I am flag marshal are single- manned points. I don't see how a lone flag marshal can manipulate the flip chart, hold the black flag and still be able to show the other flags - remembering that he/she already needs to be looking both ways to correctly react to both blue and yellow situations. Comments about needing eyes in your backside will be ignored!

Well I presume numbers of marshals are the reasons superbikes have the flags at all posts, while bemsee (the bike club) have them at only one additional post. Surely it would be possible for touring cars at the least to introduce such a system, although thinking about it, it would be a waste of time as they don't do black or black/white flags in touring cars....

The one thing i have always failed to understand (and this is not a moan in anyway) is why when there are 5-6 marshals on a post there is only one who will touch the flags, surely incident marshals could assist with holding the black flag and flip chart should such system be introduced (obviously if the was an incident at the post the flag and board could be dropped).

[SWCRacing]

The bikes have the black and orange flag on every post as a SAFETY measure. There flag rules are different to cars in that you are meant to pull off the circuit immediately when shown it. Mainly because if you are dropping oil you are a major danger to the other riders. Whilst bike racing is still motorsport, there are different risks that need to be taken into account when running the events, afterall, if you go off track on someone elses oil in a car you may damage the car, if you get spat off a bike, you damage yourself!!!

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by westfieldbend

The one thing i have always failed to understand (and this is not a moan in anyway) is why when there are 5-6 marshals on a post there is only one who will touch the flags, surely incident marshals could assist with holding the black flag and flip chart should such system be introduced (obviously if the was an incident at the post the flag and board could be dropped).

When flagging, I usually ask for (and receive), assistance with the SC board etc. if this is feasible but at some circuits, for example Silverstone, many flag points are a long distance from the incident team, sometimes on the other side of the track. When there are trainees on the post I will always invite them to have a go at flagging. When I am Post Chief I will always suggest that anyone on the incident team has a go. I don't often get any volunteers though.

[Woolley]

While I'm not a supporter of all things American, my experience of Champ Cars has taught me three thingsL

1) They do coms (landlines) better than we do.
2) They do Safety (Pace) car better than we do (double stationary yellows, no extra hands needed, no need to fetch the board from where it had to be put out of the way.
3) They do black flag better than we do. Big black board with the words 'Black Flag' in large day-glo letters and the race number on velcro stuck to it. More importantly, it's shown before the last corner - inside turn 3 at Rockingham, RH side at the end of Bottom Straight at Brands so that you see it and go straight in, instead of seeing it just after the pit entrance and having to do another lap.

As a marshal, having done all three, I have been evangelising about them ever since. RC, while having real time reports over the landline which is audible at all marshals posts, also have talk-back to all cars which I believe is simultaneously received by the teams. It would be simple technology and inexpensive to lend out on the day.

And before anyone tells me we don't have people who can run landline systems in this country, visit any hillclimb where it is the normal procedure, even if they probably don't realise that's what they're doing!

[R59]

As a radio communications professional speaking here, there is much voodoo and hype about radio comms. There are people involved in "motorsport radio" that frankly lift the legs of competitors because the mainstream comms companies don't get involved - mostly because they don't understand the environment or demands of the competitors (want it now! Right NOW!).

The numbers given out here for the race receivers and base station are typical for over-priced stuff.

I would supply TRANSCEIVERS for that money, though you can use a simple earpiece for receive only which costs very little, compared to a decent helmet kit with in-ear transducers (earphones to you and me guv) which will cost you around £180 plus VAT.

Simple earpeices are no available that offer up to 35dB(A) of attenuation. That's a BIG amount of perceived noise reduction.

The £2000 for the base station - utter tripe! That would give you a fully installed talk-through base station repeater, with filters, and fixed aerial.

Regarding the issues of "distracting" drivers, again, it's hogwash. It is true that there are people who cannot multi-task, who can't chew gum and walk, but statistics show that racing drivers do not fall into that category. It's almost one of the pre-requisites of a racing driver, amateur or professional, that they can drive and think simultaneously, and that goes for taking in external information, including flag signals, or strange voices in their ears. Wearing a good quality noise reducing set of earpieces would quieten the driver's world, raising their concentration level.

My viewpoint as a competitor, especially as one who has raced with a spotter in a series where no radio means no racing (SCSA/ASCAR), the communication between race control and "the field" formed a key part of the way of play. The spotters were all "rounded up" by the "Chief Spotter". They all had two radio's, one for the car, one for the Chief Spotter. The Chief Spotter had comms with Race Control, and could relay information to the individual spotters as required.

The Crew Chief also had two radios. He had one on the car channel, and the other listening to Race Control.

If anything happened, the driver found out very quickly. Should there have been a need to bring a car in, there was never any confusion. It was all done cleanly, and most importanly, safely.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that this kind of system needs to be employed in all walks of motorsport, but the race receiver setup would be easy to implement.

A VHF receiver in each car, a simple scanner from Maplins for £89.99 like this:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35695
A body mounted aerial for that would cost you around £25-30.
Earphones: These are £6.99 and have noise reduction "plugs" http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=32255

There, you're set up for under £150.

Now, race control.

A "Fixed Mobile" setup, with aerial (which the circuit should fit to the control tower and leave the aerial cable ready for use!) would run to around £500 plus a bit of installation.

There are cheaper scanners, you could buy second-hand, in fact you may be able to pick up a good secondhand transceiver and have it programmed for receive only. In fact, I could supply good second-hand ex-professional fixed car radios for around £35 programmed for receive only. They're often not as easy to connect earphones to, but it's not beyond the skills of mankind to make it work.

So, IF, the likes of the BARC, or BRSCC, decide that competitors may have receivers, they should not mandate that it has to be an over-priced bit of kit from a single supplier (like transponders eh!)

I shall return to my world of witchcraft, voodoo, and the black art of wireless, something that confuses even computer geeks, and leave you all in peace for a few minutes.