Group A BMW M3 E30 - General info and history

[Jesper OH]

Just had a look in the aforementioned Bathurst ’87 annual of what is said regarding the various M-Sport entries. What it essentially says in the introduction to the various teams and cars (page 84), Schnitzer ran their regular WTCC entries #40 and #46, but “As well they ran two extra, similar looking cars – Nos. 41 and 47 – for Motorsport”. “These two cars had been literally commandeered from the semi-works Linder and Zakspeed teams (Nos. 41 and 47 respectively) in Germany for Bathurst. Previously those cars had been used by those teams to contest the lesser European Touring Car Championship and German Championship”.

As I understand it, the #41 (Gary Brabham/Juan Fangio II) was the Linder car and the #47 (Anette Meeuvissen/Mercedes Stermitz) was the Zakspeed car.

A little further on it says that CiBiEmme and Bigazzi raced only one car each:
#42 CiBiEmme (Johnny Cecotto/Gianfranco Brancatelli) was a one race old car, having only done the Nürburgring WTCC, while..
#43 Bigazzi (Olivier Grouillard and BMW Junior Team driver [sic] Winni Vogt). “It’s No. 43 brand new to replace the previous team car rolled by Olivier Grouillard in practice for the sodden Silverstone TT round of the WTCC”. This then explain the plain white livery of this car, considering Silverstone happened only four weeks prior and half the globe away from Bathurst. A long distance shot of the car in the race does show the regular '87 M-Sport colors though.

Looking at a picture of the #41 at page 125 (from the race itself) confuses matter a bit. The Compaq sponsored car is shot from behind and has a small CiBiEmme sticker on the right hand side of the boot lid as well as on the pillar of the rear wing, making it a Linder car, run by Schnitzer, sponsored by CiBiEmme!? If it’s any clue, the stickers say Pirelli tyres, as for the #42 car (and #43), while #47 has Yokohama stickers on, as does the #40 and #46.

As for the entry list in the back of the book, it’s not definite regarding the #41 and #47 entries, while the other four M-Sport cars is listed as of their regular teams. My best bet is that CiBiEmme somehow ended up running two cars at Bathurst, but that it was not necessarily how it was intended in the first place. Considering how the four white/red/blue striped cars were seen at the TAFE work shop during practice and qualifying, the Schnitzer team might have felt for a bit of relief. Schnitzer even had a car air freighted to Australia for the following weeks race at Calder, that eventually saw Pirro and Ravaglia finish second.
http://www.groupc.org.au/Photo%20Gal...%20m3%2010.htm

I’m not taking absolutely taking everything written in the Bathurst annuals as the gospel truth, but if every race had this kind of testimonies written about it…

To add a bit further on things, the DTM Zakspeed cars of Eric van de Poele and Marc Hessel ended up in Sweden for 1988. Per-Gunnar Andersson running the BMW Dealer Team Sweden cars for himself and Lennart Bohlin sharing one car during the early part of the season, but running a two car team from mid-summer.

Jesper

[chunterer]

Jesper excellent input once again.

I also have to agree that it is strange to have a car loaned from Linder run by Schnitzer with CiBiEmme logos on it and still running Pirellis which CiBiEmme did anyway IIRC? Hmmmm, another little mystery methinks!!!

Thanks also to KA and ian. Between the 3 of you, you've kickstarted the thread back into life!!

[malscar]

Seeing as you are talking about the European M3s that ran at the WTCC round at Bathurst, they ran at Calder the next week.

Here are some shots from turn 1 which was the entry onto the Nascar oval.

#40



#42



#46

[malscar]

#43



#46 again



#62

[malscar]

#42 again but from the rear quarter

[ian beckett]

Excellent,many thanks.Ian.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by malscar

#62

Thats not an M3.... why would they take the trouble to go to Calder and not Bathurst??

I dont recall this car at all...

[ian beckett]

Yes it is an M3 it raced at Silverstone and a few races in the DTM series. You are correct it may seem odd to go all the way to Calder but not do Bathurst!

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Thats not an M3.... why would they take the trouble to go to Calder and not Bathurst??

I dont recall this car at all...

Perhaps the driver - one Prince Leopold von Bayern - was a little gunshy about heading back to The Mountain after his last effort?

[KA]

It's the Schwaben Motorsport car of Thomas von Loewis- as Ian said, it mainly ran in the DTM, but also turned up in the WTCC a few times- Nurburgring (logically enough for a German privateer), the TT and then surprisingly popped up at Calder and Wellington.

Drivers were always von Loewis and Prince Leopold, joined by Jan Thoelke at the 'Ring, and the only WTCC result was 12th at Wellington, otherwise posting 3 DNFs

[GuyS.]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

To add a bit further on things, the DTM Zakspeed cars of Eric van de Poele and Marc Hessel ended up in Sweden for 1988. Per-Gunnar Andersson running the BMW Dealer Team Sweden cars for himself and Lennart Bohlin sharing one car during the early part of the season, but running a two car team from mid-summer.

Jesper

Hello everyone, newbie here!

I have a little history about the 87 Zakspeed DTM cars, it seems they ran 3 chassis that year -

M3-04 for Mark Hessel
M3-10 for Eric Van de Poele 1st half of season
M3-36 VDP 2nd half

M3-10 was used in the 87 Nurburgring 24 hr where it had a small shunt but finished the race.

[chunterer]

Welcome Guy, appreciate the input on the chassis numbers.

We could transfer that info to the archive thread shortly.

[Adrian B]

Originally Posted by GuyS.

Hello everyone, newbie here!

I have a little history about the 87 Zakspeed DTM cars, it seems they ran 3 chassis that year -

M3-04 for Mark Hessel
M3-10 for Eric Van de Poele 1st half of season
M3-36 VDP 2nd half

M3-10 was used in the 87 Nurburgring 24 hr where it had a small shunt but finished the race.

I am trying to trace any history of ch#60. It has a Matter build plate stating it was built 6/87. Info from a previous owner said it was originally a Zakspeed car. I have nothing to confirm this. It was sold to Japan late 80's/early 90's and ran in the JTCC, prepared by Asahi Kiko Sports team and sponsored by Valvoline. I have a result sheet from Fuji, October 1993, driver Anthony Reid and a Japanese co-driver. Whilst in Japan it was upgraded to 2.5 ltr, DTM suspension and aero kit. Then it was sold to Malaysia, and I believe raced in the SEAsian TCC a few times. This would have been mid 90's and the driver could have been Hashimoto. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks Adrian.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

The '87 Bathurst CiBiEmme M3 was either already in the hands of Kiwi Mark Petch or about to be, when it raced at Mount Panorama that year. A year later at Bathurst it was in the ownership of Bill Bryce.

If the above is so, there's the chance that the Dürig car in the link is in fact the #48 Spa 24h and Silverstone TT-winner, pending on that only two CiBiEmme M3s ever existed in the first place - and I don't know about!

Jesper

Just to muddy the waters a bit, the 1988 Bathurst yearbook I've got seems to suggest the Bryce car in 1988 was ex-Bigazzi, not CiBiEmme, and was acquired by Bryce after a short period in Petch's ownership....

At first I wondered if that was a typo, but frustratingly, there's not a clear pic of the car in the book... However,.it appears in the background of several and appears to still be in BMW Motorsport colours (ie white with the M-Sport stripes). So is this the original paintjob for one of the other M-Sport cars sold to Bill Bryce, or a Bryce respray of the ex-CiBiEmme #42?

Given that by Calder, we've got no less than 7 factory-backed M3s in Australia/NZ (including CiBiEmme's #42, and the replacement car flown in for Calder), it would be interesting to be able to unravel which exact cars appeared at which races for which teams, and what subsequently happened to them....As you said, the information in these books is pretty comprehensive, but is it always 100% gospel...?

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

Just to muddy the waters a bit, the 1988 Bathurst yearbook I've got seems to suggest the Bryce car in 1988 was ex-Bigazzi, not CiBiEmme, and was acquired by Bryce after a short period in Petch's ownership....

At first I wondered if that was a typo, but frustratingly, there's not a clear pic of the car in the book... However,.it appears in the background of several and appears to still be in BMW Motorsport colours (ie white with the M-Sport stripes). So is this the original paintjob for one of the other M-Sport cars sold to Bill Bryce, or a Bryce respray of the ex-CiBiEmme #42?

The book I'm referring to has the title "The Great Race TOOHEYS 1000 MOUNT PANORAMA - BATHURST - 1988" by Bill Tuckey. Looked for an ISBN number, but found an ISSN 1031-6124 number instead. I have seen varying covers for the same years on the net, but always assumed it was a matter of different covers only. But is it?
Page 123 has a very nice shot of the car from it's right hand side going up the mountain, with the ajoining text saying ex-CiBiEmme car.

Blues legend Muddy Waters once released an album entitled "Mud In Your Ears". Given the visual aspect of this forum, a retitling of Muddy's title might be appropriate here

Jesper

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by Adrian B

I am trying to trace any history of ch#60. It has a Matter build plate stating it was built 6/87. Info from a previous owner said it was originally a Zakspeed car. I have nothing to confirm this. It was sold to Japan late 80's/early 90's and ran in the JTCC, prepared by Asahi Kiko Sports team and sponsored by Valvoline. I have a result sheet from Fuji, October 1993, driver Anthony Reid and a Japanese co-driver. Whilst in Japan it was upgraded to 2.5 ltr, DTM suspension and aero kit. Then it was sold to Malaysia, and I believe raced in the SEAsian TCC a few times. This would have been mid 90's and the driver could have been Hashimoto. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks Adrian.

Here's what I got on the #27 Tomei Sport BMW M3 of 1993 - Anthony Reid and Atsushi Kawamoto being the drivers in all nine rounds of the Japanese Touring Car Championship. Here's a link to the entry list for the Fuji final:
http://amagawa.hp.infoseek.co.jp/93-...TC-R9entry.htm

R1 - 1993.03.14 - Mine - 10th o/a, 3rd in class
R2 - 1993.04.25 - Autopolis - 7th o/a, 2nd in class
R3 - 1993.05.16 - Sugo - 9th o/a, 4th in class
R4 - 1993.07.04 - Suzuka - 16th o/a, 6th in class
R5 - 1993.08.08 - Aida - 6th o/a, 1st in class
R6 - 1993.08.22 - Tsukuba - 8th o/a, 3rd in class
R7 - 1993.09.19 - Tokachi - 9th o/a, 2nd in class
R8 - 1993.10.10 - Sendai - 7th o/a, 3rd in class
R9 - 1993.10.31 - Fuji - 7th o/a, 2nd in class

Eventually Reid was classified in third, Kawamoto in forth, in division 2. The difference being found on the number of miles covered over the season!

Jesper

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by malscar

Seeing as you are talking about the European M3s that ran at the WTCC round at Bathurst, they ran at Calder the next week.

Here are some shots from turn 1 which was the entry onto the Nascar oval.

#40



#42



#46

Nice to see those pictures, malscar. I guess you were there then, getting mighty wet at times, as the group A gallery at the Group C Touring Car Association depicts (among other races):
http://www.groupc.org.au/Photo%20Gal...up_A/index.htm
(Lot's of interesting pictures to be found there, BTW)

Jesper

[ian beckett]

Hi Jesper,you beat me to it! The results for the Asahi Kikos car all match mine (from a different source),so I think we can take them as accurate! Ian.

[Jesper OH]

What's your source, Ian? As I'm looking for any kind of results for Japanese group A results I'm curious (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...05#post2353805 - I'm getting to 1993 eventually!)

Thought a bit about the M3-60 Zakspeed number. If #36 was taken up mid-season (the '87 DTM season ended in August), It could be that this car was taken up by Zakspeed for the October Hockenheimring race; A race over 2 x 100 kilometer heats, and essentially the future DTM format from 1988-1996 ITC. This race was a non-championship event and generally little known. From memory only, Zakspeed was a BMW team till 1989, then shifting to Mercedes-Benz.

Jesper

[malscar]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Nice to see those pictures, malscar. I guess you were there then, getting mighty wet at times, as the group A gallery at the Group C Touring Car Association depicts (among other races):
http://www.groupc.org.au/Photo%20Gal...up_A/index.htm
(Lot's of interesting pictures to be found there, BTW)

Jesper

I was at Calder/Winton/Sandown & Bathurst during those years. That meeting was a wet one, but since my first love is rallying, I have all the wet/cold etc gear so even if it rained, I was pretty dry.

Thanks for that link, had not been on their site for a few years.

Mal

[andy_b]

Quick question

In 1990, the BTCC Mobil sponsoredBMW M3's for Sytner and IIRC Mike Smith ( and the Hoy Securicor and Harvey/Bristow Labatts car). Were they Group A or the then new Super Touring class.

I always thought they were group A, but I red an article online that said Vauxhall and BMW had an advantage for 1991 because they used Super-touring the previous year.

thanks

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

The book I'm referring to has the title "The Great Race TOOHEYS 1000 MOUNT PANORAMA - BATHURST - 1988" by Bill Tuckey. Looked for an ISBN number, but found an ISSN 1031-6124 number instead. I have seen varying covers for the same years on the net, but always assumed it was a matter of different covers only. But is it?
Page 123 has a very nice shot of the car from it's right hand side going up the mountain, with the ajoining text saying ex-CiBiEmme car.

Blues legend Muddy Waters once released an album entitled "Mud In Your Ears". Given the visual aspect of this forum, a retitling of Muddy's title might be appropriate here

Jesper

Hi Jesper- there seem to be two varieties of Bathurst annual- the Bill Tuckey one you've mentioned (I've got the same book, the only one I have in that series) but also a second series of them- I think by a guy named Garry Sparke or something like that (I'm about 200 miles away from home at the moment so don't have them to hand...)- I have the 1985-8 volumes of these ('85 is illustrated if it helps...
http://fineprintbooks.com.au/images/pics/61528.jpg )
They seem less detailed than the Tuckey version, but include a section which goes through the entry by type of car, giving background on each individual entry, often including a little history of the car...

Helpfully, they seem to contradict each other on the origins of the Bryce M3..... Perhaps one of our Aussie correspondants can advise which is the more reliable source as a rule!

[chunterer]

Andy, indeed, in 1990 the M3's ran to the new 2-litre 'Class 2' spec as it was originally known before the 'Super Touring' name was assigned in 1991 IIRC. The only pukka Group A cars were the Class A Sierras.

Prodrive continued to run Sytner but the second car was shared between Kurt Luby, Kelvin Burt and Tim Sugden under a kind of Junior Team umbrella. Vic Lee ran a car for Jeff Allam, Godfrey Hall continued with his Maguire run car with John Clark in a sister one.

No one ran old spec 2.3 M3's because there wasn't a class for them anymore, it was the Sierras and I guess anything else anyone wanted to run (but didn't) in the over 3000cc big class and the new 2-litre engined cars in Class B.

The Securicor and Labatt's Vic Lee run cars you refer to were entered alongside the Prodrive cars in the 1991 series, which Hoy won.

Hope that helps?

[andy_b]

fantastic. Doning a piece on Super touring for Speedhunters and just wanted to clarify.

Thanks

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

Hi Jesper- there seem to be two varieties of Bathurst annual- the Bill Tuckey one you've mentioned (I've got the same book, the only one I have in that series) but also a second series of them- I think by a guy named Garry Sparke or something like that (I'm about 200 miles away from home at the moment so don't have them to hand...)- I have the 1985-8 volumes of these ('85 is illustrated if it helps...
http://fineprintbooks.com.au/images/pics/61528.jpg )
They seem less detailed than the Tuckey version, but include a section which goes through the entry by type of car, giving background on each individual entry, often including a little history of the car...

Helpfully, they seem to contradict each other on the origins of the Bryce M3..... Perhaps one of our Aussie correspondants can advise which is the more reliable source as a rule!

I have the same cover (and book, presumably!). Barry Naismith being the author, covering the 1985 race.

Regarding the 1991 BTCC M3s, Vic Lee said in a contemporary interview that the secret behind his M3s - including champion Will Hoy's car - was that they were build to Super Touring specifications, while the opposition build on older group A thinking. If I understood Lee correct, the Prodrive car among others, could have been build from the ground up to 2-litre Super Touring spec., but not to the full extent of what the regulations actually allowed. I know that the 1990 Lee M3 for Jeff Allam, was a former Bigazzi (or CiBiEmme, can't remember now) car, and this experience inspired him to build his own fleet of cars for 1991.

Jesper