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Old 4 Sep 2003, 22:46 (Ref:708537)   #1
Mr V
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Sauber to run the F2003-GA in '04?

According to an article in this months F1Racing mag (by Peter Windsor) Sauber might run the F2003-GA next season. (I know that there was alot of talk about the possibility of Jordan doing the same with the McLaren too next year, but imo, that was never going to happen).

Should this happen, isn't it against (to quote Windsor) the most fundamental rule in Formula 1....

A team has to build their own cars in order enter the world championship

Does anyone seriously see this happening? My questions regarding the subject are...

A) How would they be able to race a car they don't understand? (as they didn't design it)

B) Why would they want to use a car that only finished 20 seconds ahead of their own car at Hungary, when they could proberbly make a bigger gain themselves, and the other teams certainly will? (yes, i do know that the F2003-GA was faster at other circuits)

C) How will they afford it?
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Old 4 Sep 2003, 22:52 (Ref:708543)   #2
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paulzinho should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpaulzinho should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
IMO it can't happen due to the fundamental rule that you mentioned.

IIRC Larrousse were thrown out of the World Championship in the early 90's for not building their own car.
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Old 4 Sep 2003, 22:52 (Ref:708544)   #3
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Mattracer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Presuming that Ferrari have a new car for Melbourne '04. I can't see Ferrari and Sauber sharing the same car (even if Ferrari have subtle updates) in the same season. Ferrari almost always delays the new car until the European season starts, playing safe for solid points for the first few races.
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Old 4 Sep 2003, 23:09 (Ref:708557)   #4
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touringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Wasn't there talk of the FIA doing away with that rule about each team having to build their own cars?

If Sauber do end up running the F2003-GA you can see why Fisi's moved there!!
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Old 4 Sep 2003, 23:16 (Ref:708566)   #5
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I like the idea of "spreading the word" with regards to knowledge. All they have to do is de-tune the engines they supply. It would be great if millions of bucks in technology didn’t become obsolete with such regularity.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 00:24 (Ref:708599)   #6
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Not gonna happen, but to answer your questions:

A) They'll get Ferrari to help
B) Are you serious? Who wouldn't want a championship contending car?
C) They have money for state of the art wind tunnel, they have money to buy a few obsolete cars.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 00:32 (Ref:708606)   #7
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I thought the FIA dumped the rule about using custom cars/chassies etc.. If you remember Minardi where talking about buying an old Jag or Renualt to save development costs.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 02:26 (Ref:708662)   #8
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GTV27 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If they also got the capacity to manufacture the car (ie the molds et al) then they would pass the test regardless of who actually designed it.

Its a great idea and should be encouraged (after all McLaren are doing OK in a development of last years car - there's some school of thought that a development of the F2002 would have been worth pursing)
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 04:19 (Ref:708710)   #9
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Mattracer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The GA hasn't turned out to be as good a car as Ferrari would have liked and the tyres haven't helped much either. Fisi may have made the smartest move of his career if it all works out.

Last edited by Mattracer; 5 Sep 2003 at 04:20.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 04:45 (Ref:708717)   #10
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DavidStHubbins should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
SOunds to me like Ferrari are already choosing who drives for Sauber and who doesn't! Heidfeld and Frenzten out! Hello Fisichella and prob Ferrari tester Massa! Better lineup anyway
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 07:06 (Ref:708812)   #11
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ralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridralf fan should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It's highly unlikely to happen but if Sauber do get the f-2003GA it certainly will do good for F1.We then could have 5 top class teams fighting for podiums and wins!!
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 07:15 (Ref:708820)   #12
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ASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridASCII Man should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If Ligier could pull it off in 1995, then why not Sauber?
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 07:28 (Ref:708829)   #13
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Maybe they can like Prost some years ago, purchasing a whole section of the car, but as Mattracer rightly pointed out, it's expectable that the Ferrari 2004 won't be available for the beginning of the season, thus it's hard to imagine that fFrrari give Sauber their same car, even just for a pocketful of races.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 07:50 (Ref:708847)   #14
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Wasnt there something in the rule changes last winter that said top teams should make their old cars available to the privateer teams?
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 09:08 (Ref:708908)   #15
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Wasnt there something in the rule changes last winter that said top teams should make their old cars available to the privateer teams?
It was reported thus in Autosport in December 02.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 09:19 (Ref:708912)   #16
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Bear in mind, though, that Ferrari have already said that Sauber will start 2004 with works-spec engines, as they'll have to have engines designed to the new-for-2004 demands.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 12:03 (Ref:709046)   #17
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shiny side up! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It would be great for Sauber to run this year's Ferrari. It is certainly faster now than Sauber's '04 car is likely to be. And, with Sauber's new fancy windtunnel, maybe they could make some improvements.

Ferrari has a lot to gain by doing this. First, access to the aforementioned windtunnel; Second, a place to develop race drivers outside the Ferrari team (but I bet Massa will still test for the Reds occaisionally), Third, a competitive, pointscoring team (Sauber) which will take points away from Macs and Willies and Renaults but would presumably try not to hinder Ferrari on the track, and Fourth, more money from Sauber buying the cars...
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 12:27 (Ref:709064)   #18
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I'm not coninced that this will happen, but let's go with it.

If it was allowed that teams could run other manufacturer's cars then I would like it to be new teams not existing ones. It would be great is they continued making their own chassis. Unfortuantly a new Jordan is slower than a year old McLaren.

Anyway. What potential users of other team's cars do with have for next year (for a laugh!)?

Jordan - 2003 McLaren
Sauber - 2003 Ferrari
Minardi - 2002 Arrows
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 13:49 (Ref:709149)   #19
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Alan Jenkins' colum in Autosport's Hungarian GP report (Aug 28 2003) mentioned this issue, but, unfortunately, was no clearer than much of what Jenkins writes...

He writes that "among the many proposals the FIA announced in January 2003 for immediate implementation was 'allowing teams to use common components'", but also states that "the current [italics added] rules do not allow for 'customer cars' and haven't done so since 1981, when the entrant had to also be the constructor or at least hold the intellectual property of the car design."

I presume that the latter quote is actually referring to the rules in place prior to January this year, but I still cannot see why this prevented teams from using competitors' out of date equipment since 1981--intellectual property rights could be bought in the same way that GTV suggests manufacturing equipment could be.

In any case, it appears that teams have been able to use common components since the start of this season.

Jenkins goes on to argue that the integration between car and engine design in F1 limits the number of component that could be realistically shared, and that those elements interchangeable between cars, such as axles, wheels, brakes, have little effect on budgets.

This would not be a problem for those teams that share the entire package with their "supplier" (ie. share an engine therefore can use chassis without adaptation), such as Ferrari/Sauber, Jaguar/Minardi, though, and as Shiny side up says, it would be in Ferrari's interest to have a more competitive junior team.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 14:04 (Ref:709164)   #20
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Sauber won't be able to use the wind-tunnel much on their 2004 car, so this year's Ferrari could be a good stop-gap, maybe before running a new car in late 2004 which oculd be used to develop the 2005 car from?

The rules have definately been cahnged recently to allow this kind of deal. And the history of F1 is defiantely not purely about cars being manufactured by the teams. Rob Walker won races entering private cars, and Frank Williams started out that way.

Private teams coming in to run other people's cars is also a great way to bolster the grid with non-factory teams and new drivers.
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 16:35 (Ref:709318)   #21
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Superunknown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Building your own car is NOT the fundamental rule of formula 1. Greats such as Rob Walker and Jackie Stewart raced customer Cooper Climaxes in the 60's. Enzo created his first racing entry with 2 engineers and a hot rod Alfa(i think, if not, Fiat).
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Old 5 Sep 2003, 18:38 (Ref:709405)   #22
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Building your own car is NOT the fundamental rule of formula 1. Greats such as Rob Walker and Jackie Stewart raced customer Cooper Climaxes in the 60's. Enzo created his first racing entry with 2 engineers and a hot rod Alfa(i think, if not, Fiat).
That may have been the case 40 years ago, but hasn't been the case since the early 80's
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