Berger: We'd Have Done the Same as Ferrari

[z2252314]

Taken from AtlasF1.com
http://www.atlasf1.com/news/report.php/id/11611/.html

"Ferrari's challenge is legitimate," Berger told Germany's Der Spiegel news magazine. "If we knew that our competitors had something that was perhaps outside the limits we would also want to have that controlled."

So it seems Williams would have done the same if they were in Ferrari's shoes. This also makes me wonder, why havent any of the team bosses for the Michelin shod teams come out in defence of their tyres? I think they know they've been caught out and just want the whole incident to blow over. Surely if they strongly believed they had done nothing illegal, they would be defending the legitamacy of their tyres. It appears that everybody agrees that the tyres dont comply with the regulations and need to be changed.

This is what Jean Todt had to say about the incident

Taken from AtlasF1.com
http://www.atlasf1.com/news/report.php/id/11610/.html

Todt said the fact that they did not report their suspicions at the Hungary race proved the issue was not a matter of sour grapes.

"It's our view that such an issue shouldn't be discussed at the race," he said. "We didn't want to harm the sport. But I'll tell you - that was not an easy decision. Our opponents should explain why they think we're sore losers.

"We didn't challenge the race results in Hungary even though we could have. There was enough evidence there."

Todt also rejected interpretations stating the tread width of front tyres is only relevant when measured on new tyres. "If I was running with a three-litre engine at the start, and at the end the capacity amounts to 3.5 litres, it would be irrelevant that the engine corresponded to the rules when new," Todt explained.

"Each part of the car must be legal throughout the Grand Prix weekend," he added.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by z2252314
This also makes me wonder, why havent any of the team bosses for the Michelin shod teams come out in defence of their tyres?

Maybe they don't want to make a song and dance about it? Silence does not prove guilt.
Just in the same way that there was very little said from them earlier in the year concerning the front rear compound issue (which was overall dealt with in a much better way by everyone).
Anyway, off the top of my head:

Autosport.com
http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=24474&s=5
Sam Michael, Williams chief operations engineer, reiterated Michelin's claims that its tyres were legal under the previous rule interpretation. He said: "The FIA have changed their interpretation and will now measure front tyres when old as well as new. It is important to clarify that Michelin tyres have never been illegal."

[Splatz the Cow]

So you like Ferrari, fine, but why all the flame posts?

Have a look at how often you've posted a very similar thread this week denegrating Michelin, Williams, McLaren, and Renault.

I realise you want to post more "evidence", as you probably see it, but its really just the same old tune, and sung off-key I might add.

[Irv the Swerve]

"we didn't want to harm the sport"

Ya gotta hand it to him.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Splatz the Cow
So you like Ferrari, fine, but why all the flame posts?

In this case I wouldn't go as far as flame. However it is bound to provoke reaction, although it seems to just be the result of very selected reading!

Just argue the case in a proper way!

[climb]

Actually, tyres matter tuns over teambosses heads, since they are just purchasers, but they don't focus on the physical product.
Expectably, if ferrari (who are not Michelin customers) discovered this width issue afetr Hungary, they had realized it long before!
They were bound to know it, but, i repeat it, this is completely irrelevant; michelin-shod teams cannot be involved in such a discussion.

[Don K]

Originally posted by climb
Expectably, if ferrari (who are not Michelin customers) discovered this width issue afetr Hungary, they had realized it long before!

If I remember correctly it was Bridgestone who found the proof during the Hungary race. (before that race, there were only strong suspicions).

Bridgestone gave the proof to Ferrari, Ferrari gave the proof to the FIA (presumably not wanting to disturb the race weekend), and the FIA notified Michelin in Hungary (giving them ample time to think about it before the issue would become public).

As far as I know, the first time that Ferrari hinted that they had known they could have filed a protest for the previous race results, was several days after Michelin tried to postpone this matter until after the season.

[Don K]

Originally posted by z2252314
This also makes me wonder, why havent any of the team bosses for the Michelin shod teams come out in defence of their tyres?

Maybe this means that they know that the tyres are legal.

Maybe this means that they think that Michelin knows more about the tyres than they do.

Maybe this means that they have already given all data about the tyres to Michelin after each tyre test.

Maybe they just wanted this situation to be settled as soon as possible (regardless of the outcome), in order to be able to plan the appropriate tests for last week's test sessions, rather than finding out this week that they had wasted their time last week.

[Andrew2001]

Jean Todt is a tit. He is the very center of all this **** with the FIA that we have had to listen to over the last few years.
Ferrari had NO argument to protest at hte result, they are just desperate, with no more cards left to play.
Why has the entire season seen no problems with tyres until now? That's right, its called desperation.
Michelin know they are legal, the FIA knows it, but as we all know, the FIA is in actual fact the Ferrari International Autosport union or council, whatever you prefer.

Ferrari are getting dirty, but that's fine, Frank and Ron know the score, they'll invite the Michelin boys and Flav into a few drinks to discuss tactics for Suzuka - Ferrari have two cars, and their opposition is basically one team, the four Anglo-German cars, with the Renaults painfully close for pace, they'll use Jarno Trolly to back Schumacher and Barrichello up, while Alonso, Montoya, DC, Ralf and Raikkonen lap the field.

[Andrew2001]

And ya know what I find so amusing about this situation, is even though I am a sole McLaren fan (Toyota are my B team), I don't support Williams except if mcLaren is out of contention (1997 etc), but I really wouldn't be upset to see Montoya beat Kimi (and therefore Schumacher) for the title. Sounds weird, but the closest rival to my fav. team and I really don't mind them actually winning? Just shows how much I can't wait til Schumacher and the concept of Ferrari winning Grand prix is over in 2006 or before. :lol:

[garcon]

So in reality Andrew, you're not so much a McLaren fan as a Ferrari hater. And I suspect that this - like most sport related "hatred" - is borne simply out of envy. In which case - like most football "fans" who hate Man Utd - your memory is terribly short.

I didn't like it when this whole tyre thing blew up any more than anyone else did. But as far as I see it, there is one simple fact that stands out - Michelin's tyres are illegal at the end of the race. And it is plain to see that there is a tangible advantage to be gained by Michelin teams in the later stages of tyre wear. It would be negligent of Ferrari, Bridgestone or anyone else not to bring this to the attention of the FIA if they believed they had sufficient evidence.

I wouldn't necessarily say Michelin have been caught blatantly and intentionally cheating - I think they've interpreted the rules incorrectly.

As an aside, do you think it's anything to do with being based in France that the FIA seem incapable of formulating technical regulations that aren't horrendously vague and open to interpretation?

[Tristan]

Blah de blah de blah.

At last someone's talking some sense (Gerhard). Well done that man.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by z2252314


This is what Jean Todt had to say about the incident........
"Each part of the car must be legal throughout the Grand Prix weekend," he added.

I must say i find this statement laughable

Whose team was it that had Barge boards 10mm too big (until all of a sudden weren't once they had spoke to the FIA)

Used a chassis at Imola 2002 that the other teams were convinced used a chassis where the floor flixed going over the bumps, and whose barge boards moved upto 40mm

Were caught on camera by Darren Heath, braking at Imola 1998 between Piratella and Aqua Minerali, with only one brake disc glowing,single-wheel "brake steer", this after they appealled againt McLarens 2nd brake pedal, thus, single wheeled brake steer was banned?

check out this post/pic

And what about the laptop that was only used on Michaels car.The one that was plugged in just before he went out, but when Ron Dennis informed Ferrari that he would appeal, and the laptop wasn't used, Ferrari finished 5th and 8th (Hockenheim 1998)

check out this post/pic

[garcon]

Interesting conjecture there, Mr V

[Mr V]

Originally posted by garcon
Interesting conjecture there, Mr V

Why, thank you kind sir

[Cynic]

IMO, this whole mess comes down to the ineptitude of the FIA. The whole F1 rule book is full of grey areas. Michelin, if indeed they have knowingly bent the rules, have simply exploited this. Every extract of the rules I have seen so far simply state the tyres should be a certain width at the start of the race. No mention of what happens after that. Yes it's a technicality, but so what?
Apart from anything else, I find the fact that Ferrari have bought this up hilarious. As Mr V points out, their record for abiding by the rules is less than perfect. The evidence they produced was apparently given to them by Bridgestone. Why didn't Bridgestone themselves complain to the FIA. This smacks of desperation on the part of Ferrari.

[Glen]

The rules DO NOT specify the width when a tyre is new. There are other criteria that are specified when new (groove depth etc) but the tread width is written in a separate sentence, AWAY from the bulleted list of regs which are for when new.

If this were clearly understood (some people just don't want to understand it seems to me, although they'd be instant experts if the cheaters were Ferrari) then we would be a lot better off. There is no grey area to be exploited at will - it very clearly says that the tyres can't have more than 270mm of tread.

What a lot of people are basically saying here is that cheating is totally fine unless it is Ferrari. Even more than that, they accuse Ferrari of cheating when they blatantly haven't - eg bargeboards, which no-one is interested in finding out about simply because they were so delighted originally and annoyed afterwards, regardless of the evidence and of the fact that the boards were incorrectly measured to start with!

[Splatz the Cow]

Sorry AdamAshmore, I've given you the impression my comment was directed towards you but it was not, instead it was about the nature of the thread (not "post", as I had written.) My comments were directed towards the thread starter.

You may still fell the same way, I don't know, but I wanted to clarify my comment, regardless.

[Adam43]

No problems. Splatz, I did realise that you meant the thread starter.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Glen

What a lot of people are basically saying here is that cheating is totally fine unless it is Ferrari. Even more than that, they accuse Ferrari of cheating when they blatantly haven't - eg bargeboards, which no-one is interested in finding out about simply because they were so delighted originally and annoyed afterwards, regardless of the evidence and of the fact that the boards were incorrectly measured to start with!

Glen, I'm presuming that this is in part bought about by my post

What i was trying to say, was that Ferrari/Bridgestone were so quick to cry foul,and Jean Todt mentioned about cars being legal etc. And Ferrari have been the team with the most "mysteries" surrounding them in recent years.

Its all well and good saying that they blatently didn't cheat, maybe the bargeboards were measured incorrectly (although, iirc, wasn't a junior member of the team blamed for this oversight?) but these guys (other team members) know what they are looking at a hell of a lot more than we on this BB do, and not everything can be "shrugged" of, no smoke without fire, as they say.

If Jean Todt (and Ross brawn for that matter) want to start making comments about their opponents, they have to make sure that they are whiter than white.

[Damon]

Exactly right V. Great hollier than thou post there Glen, but surely this is little more than the pot calling the kettle black? Ferrari are far from model participants and it's not just us clueless forum members that think Ferrari's handling of this is wrong. Those much closer to the sport feel exactly the same.

[Adam43]

I was very interested to hear your words from Peter Windsor in another thread Damon.

It appears to me that this has all been played out in Gazzetta dello Sport, which is unfortunate. All that we know has been conjecture from letters to this really. There will not be a ruling as such on the matter from the FIA, no appeals, no decisions, just a slight change in the rules. All that is left is a sour taste and no real knowledge of what was going on.

[paulzinho]

Todts comments about the engine size thing and the need to be legal throughout the weekend, reminded me of what happenned when ground effects were banned in the early 80's I think.

The teams used to get around this by having a switch in the car which raised the car when it entered the pits so it passed as legal but was lowered on track so that the skirts worked properly.

Can't remember where I saw it but it caused a lot of hoo ha at the time I think.

[Stephenw]

For the life of me I can't see how this comes as a surprise. The bloody Michelin runner's are not changing thier fronts...sooner or later something had to be done about it. Did they think noone would notice?

Exploiting a loop-hole or whatever it is you call this; is plain and simply wrong. The Michelin runners are all faster and faster as each race has been run; whilst not changing front tires!!

And it's clear what the outcome is: Busted.

You can't now take a stance that they are following the 'letter' of the rules in full view of an exploitation; because this is what in truth damages the sport; not Ferrari's act of calling attention to it.

If you think it's OK for Williams and/or Mclaren to win the championship this way then I question your nature as a fan. No one in thier right mind wants to see this title decided by dodgy tires, we want a straight fight.

I have no problem whatsover with the concept that the FIA will make sure that the fronts are 270mm for the ENTIRE race.

[Damon]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
It appears to me that this has all been played out in Gazzetta dello Sport, which is unfortunate.

I'd have to agree. They've made a huge story out of something that probably would have failed to hit the radar during the peak season. It just happened to fall during a three week gap when the papers have column inches to fill.