rubbing

alf · 17 Apr 2006, 21:46 (Ref:1587132)

not sure if it has a thread on here already but if not here goes
why is "rubbing" not frowned upon?
I watched the touring cars the other day and saw the usual suspect up to their usual tricks. deliberate contact is cheating, in the same way as shuting the door on some one, forcing them on to the grass, who has got along side you is.

I just watched a video of a guy getting his car written off at snett this weekend and bugger all was done about it, dispite it happening in sight of at least 2 marshal posts. this is all to common in recent years, do the officials actualy watch the racing with a view to policing it , at all?

This is cheating. it should be banned and stamped out, from the top down.
maybe this way we will prevent lot of dissapointed drivers.

carsten.meurer · 18 Apr 2006, 00:39 (Ref:1587225)

you can read about my position towards racing in the blocking thred...

at least over here and especially in belgium, the officials are pretty quick in filling theire pockets, asking you to pay 350 quid for going over a white line into a runnoff area twice and similar . don't even wanna know what they need the money for...

but they do bugger all to stop obviously dangerous driving !

i witnessed a guy going round zolder with a broken car, taking out as many people on the way as he could. he took out a guy that was flying past him in the paddock chicane at zolder, completely writing his car of in the concrete
wall ! he joked about it, told it was fun to watch ! he admitted to try and
get as many as he could !
neither the race officials, nor renault did anything against him - did not bann
him from future races, did not fine him to maybe donate some parts to the poor bloke to repair his wreck - bugger all !

caring about the serious things is too much work !
you might get asked to attend a court case at the msa , - for what ?
it doesn't earn them money !
crossing white lines earns you 350 for no work !

long gone are the times where clubs organized events for the good of the sport ! today its making enough money to life a sweet life for the rest of the year... all from a single event !

no, i won't go on into entry fees, tire cost and low quality spare parts,
licens fees and club memberships, and everything else that is so expensive it makes you wonder who lives a billionaires life from it...

**Stephen Green** · 18 Apr 2006, 07:25 (Ref:1587364)

Alf,

Just to explain the situation reference the marshals. At most meetings we are instructed to report to Race Control ALL contact between cars, no matter how small. The initial telephone or radio communication is then followed up by a written report, handed into the course car at the end of each session. The reports are then taken back to Race Control where the Clerks and Stewards/Judges make a decision on whether action should be taken or not.
It is a little unfair to blame the marshals for not reporting, when in fact we have done. Try asking the Clerks and Judges why no action is taken.

zefarelly · 18 Apr 2006, 07:28 (Ref:1587367)

I had a fellow racer pressing me for the class lead yesterday at Combe, he wasn't even along side and threw himself into the chicane on the inside, clipping the posts and forcing me over the kerbs and onto the grass, If I hadn't done that I'd be going home with a bent car.

I guess the consolation is I took him on the inside at Camp Corner and beat him by half a lap :-)

Al Weyman · 18 Apr 2006, 07:44 (Ref:1587382)

The sooner they (TOCA and the MSA) reclassify BTCC as a contact sport the better for all of us, there would then be a clear distinction between what they are trying to achieve and what the rest of us amatuers are.

Incidently Zef I was most impressed with your driving skills against some very quick machines in the Sebring Salute in those filthy conditions at Brands, well done, slippery was'nt it?. If you (we) can do it and produce good racing without all this banger barging nonscence why can't the 'professionals'?

zefarelly · 18 Apr 2006, 07:50 (Ref:1587385)

Thanks Al, I quite like wet racing, a great leveller !

the wet was one condition we all have to deal with, what really annoyed me was that the back side of the circuit was covered in clay and mud, even in wet races experienced racers don't usually slide off into the gravel traps on green flag laps, MSV should be ashamed of themselves for leaving the circuit in such a disgraceful and dangerous state

(I believe there have been some official complaints from race organisers)

ss_collins · 18 Apr 2006, 10:29 (Ref:1587510)

I think in very close quarters racing (like vee/stock hatch) some contact is inevitable. I have lightly touched the back of some competitors in the past - not to upset the balance of their cars - just cos thats how damn close you are running, rubbing in the nascar sense is to unnerve the other driver - break his rythm - not really much use on a road course.

BTCC is not rubbing its hitting, but doorhandling is part or saloon car racing

zefarelly · 18 Apr 2006, 11:54 (Ref:1587581)

the odd scratch is one thing, and I guess it happens in saloons, but BTCC is woeful, its blatant hitting. end of.

when I did my ARDS course we where shown videos, its very simple we where rightly told, drive like that and you'll loose your license quicker than you got it

**Stephen Green** · 18 Apr 2006, 12:07 (Ref:1587593)

Zef, why not bring up the subect at your next drivers briefing and ask the clerks to get tough, or do the same with the series co-ordinator. If you allsing from the same hymn sheet, it should help the officials to clamp down?

**Woolley** · 18 Apr 2006, 12:30 (Ref:1587616)

To be fair, you'll find marshals generally refer to BTCC as 'banger racing' and despair at the appalling driving standards it sets - almost revels in - and the effect of that on other categories. I also think that F1 sets a very poor example.

Al Weyman · 18 Apr 2006, 13:28 (Ref:1587661)

Zef in reply to your Brands comment and not wishing to Hijack I have started a new thread re: Brands GP track condition at the weekend.

graeme · 18 Apr 2006, 14:51 (Ref:1587704)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

or do the same with the series co-ordinator.

In Caterham Graduates, we've sent up a driving standards system because there's rarely any punishment handed down from the control tower. Our ultimate sanction is having club membership revoked, which stops you racing in the series, but most people respond well to a few words on what is and is not acceptable.

**Tim Falce** · 18 Apr 2006, 15:10 (Ref:1587720)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

I just watched a video of a guy getting his car written off at snett this weekend and bugger all was done about it, dispite it happening in sight of at least 2 marshal posts. this is all to common in recent years, do the officials actualy watch the racing with a view to policing it , at all?

What race was that? I know quite a few people who were racing there over the weekend.

GordonG · 18 Apr 2006, 20:27 (Ref:1587943)

In my formula (RGB, 750MC) there has never been any approval of any form of contact. Indeed, this year the Club is getting very strict on contact and we have already had 2 drivers with licenses endorsed for relatively minor infringements. The drivers in general support this and hope that it will lead to a reduction in contact and the costs (and danger) involved. I expect the 750 CoCs will be taking a similar line with all the formulae.

BTCC is the bain of the clubman's life - not a week goes by when you dont hear something to the effect of "well that's how the touring cars do it". It's like soccer players looking to the All Blacks for tackling and ball control hints.

If we wanted bumping and barging we'd have gone oval/banger racing.

G

JohnD · 18 Apr 2006, 20:56 (Ref:1587971)

All,
I've pointed it out before and will do so again - the MSA allows the BTCC to behave like hooligans.

See Para O.2.1.2 of the Blue Book.

For the benefit of marshals, fellow drivers who are cut up or worse by BTCC wannabees, and Carsten (who won't have a Blue Book, or is it Blaues Buch?!), here's what it says:
"O 2.1.2 In the event that the British Touring Car Championship Regulations shall vary the penalties and procedures set out in these Regulations then the applicable British Touring Car Regulations shall replace such parts or parts of these Regulations as the case may be."
Section O deals with Judicial matters and Subsection 2 with Penalties. In other words, the BTCC can set their own standards of driving, or anything!

Which is a pity, when after F1, BTCC gets the most media coverage of any other motorsport in the UK. The rest of us get labelled as irresponsible drivers, and new drivers think they can drive like that in any championship.

It's Gresham's Law - bad money drives out good - in a motorsport context and I'm disgusted that the MSA puts up with it. The sooner BTCC is forced to ally themselves with stockcar racing and twocking the better.

Rant over.
John

johnw · 18 Apr 2006, 21:49 (Ref:1588029)

Top Ranting JohnD

'Twould be best if the series and championships that condone (encourage?) contact are labelled as such, leaving the rest of us to get on with racing unhindered by the comparison.

alf · 18 Apr 2006, 22:23 (Ref:1588072)

Quote:

Originally Posted by graeme

In Caterham Graduates, we've sent up a driving standards system because there's rarely any punishment handed down from the control tower. Our ultimate sanction is having club membership revoked, which stops you racing in the series, but most people respond well to a few words on what is and is not acceptable.

how does this work then?
I am interested to hear anything that works well, that I can bring up t a drivers meeting and claim as my own

andreww · 18 Apr 2006, 22:50 (Ref:1588103)

my club (SMRC) takes action on poor driving standards.
This year a driver was refused membership and his entrys have been refused because of the amount of contact and damage he caused last year.

johngee · 19 Apr 2006, 09:07 (Ref:1588432)

The only way that I (and my colleagues) can help improve this situation is for drivers to 'stand up and be counted'. The marshals and observers do a terrific job but remember that they're often overstretched through lack of numbers, are trying to 'police' a large area of track and often see and report contact but not what led up to it.
The basis of any judicial action for driving standards is evidence, evidence and more evidence. I'll never shy away from taking action against any driver causing damage or gaining unfair advantage through careless, reckless, dangerous, driving incompatible with safety etc.(there's a whole armory of 'stuff' in the Blue Book just waiting to be used) but I need evidence, not whispers, innuendo, 'background noise' and rumour.
So, to a certain extent, the remedy is in your hands. Bring me evidence and witnesses and I'll do whatever's required to make our sport safer, fairer and damage free. Talk to me!!!!!!!!!!

zefarelly · 19 Apr 2006, 09:44 (Ref:1588468)

I've never made a formal complaint because as a rookie ( compared to some) I'm still learning whats deemed acceptable and whats not on the whole, but I had a private whinge a while ago and the driver was called to the CoC . .the whole Paddock gave a silent cheer !!!

In my experience a few overkeen guys get a word in their shell and calm down/learn, its usually the wallet racers who go round smashing stuff up because its immaterial to them, just win at any cost.

**Peter Mallett** · 19 Apr 2006, 10:15 (Ref:1588488)

Rubbing is (at the risk of being condemned here) ok if practiced between consenting adults!

What I mean is that you can conceivably gently nerf someone without putting them in the kitty litter or causing any lasting damage.

Rubbing is not the same as deliberately punting someone off by using them as a brake fr'instance.

I've had a number of races where the bumpers have touched on the entry into a corner and its been interesting to say the least as to how I, or if I was doing the rubbing, my fellow competitor reacted.

Most interesting was when we were at Silverstone some years ago and we were three Capri's in a train around Becketts. My front bumper was under the rear of the car in front whilst another driver had his front bumper under mine. We went through like that two or three times. On returning to the paddock we broke out the beers and had a good laugh about it.

Another time I put a completely clean move on a car into the Esses at Snetterton whereupon the driver in question harpooned me into the barrier as I turned in for the second half of the complex!

I was not pleased by that.

**Stephen Green** · 19 Apr 2006, 10:22 (Ref:1588495)

I think thats the difference between good, close racing and being a total

Peter. Most of us would say the bumper to bumper stuff is what good racing should be, others may disagree.

[edit]Language, Stephen![/edit]

zefarelly · 19 Apr 2006, 10:58 (Ref:1588528)

Its a very fine line though Peter, I always do my best to avoid touching other cars becasue I don't like denting mine as well, and it can't do anything for lap times, having said that neither does a big avoiding lock up, because some nonce has cut you up !

graeme · 19 Apr 2006, 12:10 (Ref:1588623)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

how does this work then?
I am interested to hear anything that works well, that I can bring up t a drivers meeting and claim as my own

YHM

johnw · 19 Apr 2006, 17:04 (Ref:1588869)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

gently nerf someone without any lasting damage.

An oxymoron.

What is not lasting damage?
Putting a new wing on the car is lasting in the sense that it's money spent on repairs rather than race entries.
T-cutting a few scratches out is OK, anything else is on the slippery slope.

This is binary IMO. It's contact or non-contact.

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