Group A Holden Commodores in Europe

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

While on the subject and I have often thought if dropping a small block chevy into a late Carlton or Omega shell and race it as a Holden Commadore, are they basically the same?

The Commodore is longer and wider than the Omega it was based on, and the floorpan was recycled from the earlier generation (78-87).

[KA]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

The 'earlier car' you refer to was an ex-MHDT 1984 VK Group C that Cleland ran in ThunderSaloons. That car is now back in Australia.

Thanks- I knew some of it's UK history but didn't realise that car had passed through Ric Wood's hands.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by KA

that's the part that I've been wondering about- apart from O'Brien's ex-Grice VK in the BTCC there were at least 3-4 European-based VLs active in Europe in 87. I'm interested by what you said about TWR's brace of VKs and VLs- is that 2 of each, and if so where did they come from

In the early part of 1987 Channel 7 in Australia ran a few stories detailing what was happening in the lead up to the opening WTCC round (the first two ATCC rounds occurred before the WTCC started, and this was when all the controversy over Bernie was erupting).

Included in a story shown during the first ATCC round at Calder (March 1), Richard Hay (who was down here to commentate on the first two ATCC rounds for Channel 7) did a story on what was happening, amongst others who were entering, and it includes an interview with Win Percy, saying that TWR hadn't told him the plans yet, but Hay says that a pair of TWR Commodore's were planned for Walkinshaw/Percy & Jeff Allam/Denny Hulme. Included in this part of the story is a brief piece of footage of the TWR workshop, with a bunch of Commodore's (both VKs & VLs, 4 or 5 in total) visible, thats where i got the 'brace' from.

This is from memory, i'm curious now, i'll get the tape out and have a proper look


On the Serge Power cars, as GTR mentions Holden Motorsport would likely happily have provided shells to anyone, but would the likes of Serge Power have built their own cars?

[Eddy V]

Serge Power did not build a Holden or any other car for that matter, bar the very very odd one, as he was an engine builder. And a very good one for that matter.

The Holdens were race ready when they bought them. None of the Holdens came from down under.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

The Holdens were race ready when they bought them. None of the Holdens came from down under.

ALL the Holdens came from Down Under.... originally... *

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

The 'earlier car' you refer to was an ex-MHDT 1984 VK Group C that Cleland ran in ThunderSaloons. That car is now back in Australia.

Are you sure that was the same car? What Cleland ran was a later model and it had a SB Chevy fitted, I thought it was a special sancioned and paid for by Vauxhall. The one Peter Barnes had was the same shape as that Rallycross car in the picture.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by johnh875

The Commodore is longer and wider than the Omega it was based on, and the floorpan was recycled from the earlier generation (78-87).

Drat! Another good idea down the pan. An Omega over here is as cheap as chips, you could buy a sound one for a couple of hundred quid, now if all you had to do was drop a nice SB Chevy motor in..........

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Henry

ALL the Holdens came from Down Under.... originally... *

Doh!

[KA]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Are you sure that was the same car? What Cleland ran was a later model and it had a SB Chevy fitted, I thought it was a special sancioned and paid for by Vauxhall. The one Peter Barnes had was the same shape as that Rallycross car in the picture.

Think we might be getting at crossed purposes here- Cleland drove two cars in Thundersaloons.

If I've not got my wires crossed, Camaroz is talking about the Senator, which was an ex-Brock HDT Group C VK Commodore brought over to the UK around 1985 (as I remember, when the Thundersaloon programme was announced in the press, it was still in Marlboro HDT colours) .

After GM Dealersport sold this on in 1987 or so (think to Peter Stevens?), it was replaced by the Carlton, which was the car built by Dave Cook's outfit.

Just a thought, if Peter Barnes' car was the same shape as the Rallycross VL in the pics on the last page, by any chance could the Barnes car be the ex-Mike O'Brien BTCC Commodore...?

[KA]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

Serge Power did not build a Holden or any other car for that matter, bar the very very odd one, as he was an engine builder. And a very good one for that matter.

The Holdens were race ready when they bought them. None of the Holdens came from down under.

Interesting- so if they weren't built by Serge Power themselves, or imported by them from Australia, we're talking about cars which were already in Europe by late 86/early 87.

We know the Grice car went to Mike O'Brien, so we're maybe looking at either two of the cars built for the aborted TWR WTCC programme, or possibly the cars HDT used in their 1986 ETCC programme, updated to VL-spec. Does anyone know if these stayed in Europe, or whether they went back to Australia?

[Al Weyman]

He told me it was an ex-Brock car. I do remember the other Holden beore the Vauxhall now you mention it. I had a good look at Peter's car, it was nothing too outragous, Muncie 4 speed I think. I do remember it had a very thick fabricated adjustable front anti-roll bar and aluminium front uprights or hubs both of which contravene the regs but we let it run for better or worse after a consultation with the other guys. Oh it was fitted with 16inch rims, I know that because I bought the Falken tyres off of it for my IROC. It was fitted with the Holden motor not a chevy

[KA]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

He told me it was an ex-Brock car. I do remember the other Holden beore the Vauxhall now you mention it. I had a good look at Peter's car, it was nothing too outragous, Muncie 4 speed I think. I do remember it had a very thick fabricated adjustable front anti-roll bar and aluminium front uprights or hubs both of which contravene the regs but we let it run for better or worse after a consultation with the other guys. Oh it was fitted with 16inch rims, I know that because I bought the Falken tyres off of it for my IROC. It was fitted with the Holden motor not a chevy

Interesting.... so apart from the 'Senator' Thundersaloon, we could have a second ex-Brock Commodore raced in the UK at some point-again does this lead us back to one of the 86 ETCC cars....?

I'd love to see a pic of the Peter Barnes car if anyone could find one....

[KA]

Originally Posted by racer69

In the early part of 1987 Channel 7 in Australia ran a few stories detailing what was happening in the lead up to the opening WTCC round (the first two ATCC rounds occurred before the WTCC started, and this was when all the controversy over Bernie was erupting).

Included in a story shown during the first ATCC round at Calder (March 1), Richard Hay (who was down here to commentate on the first two ATCC rounds for Channel 7) did a story on what was happening, amongst others who were entering, and it includes an interview with Win Percy, saying that TWR hadn't told him the plans yet, but Hay says that a pair of TWR Commodore's were planned for Walkinshaw/Percy & Jeff Allam/Denny Hulme. Included in this part of the story is a brief piece of footage of the TWR workshop, with a bunch of Commodore's (both VKs & VLs, 4 or 5 in total) visible, thats where i got the 'brace' from.

That's really interesting, as I don't think I remember there eing much coverage of Walkinshaw's Holden WTCC plans over here- the only picture I think I ever saw was a blurry testing shot of a plain white VK (I think...) with a couple of TWR stickers.

What puzzles me though is the mention of VKs- if they were building new cars from Holden Motorsport shells in the winter of 86/7, then why bother to build VKs and not go straight to VLs....

The only thing I can think of is that a couple of VKs were bought in from outside TWR for initial testing and assessment prior to building the actual race cars, or for some reason when the first test car was built it was easier to build it as a VK- maybe in late 86, before the VL was homologated?

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Henry

ALL the Holdens came from Down Under.... originally... *

The VK (AVK005309A) that ran in the French Touring Car Championships driven by Guy Frequelin in 1986 was built in France. The components came from Australia, most from the HDT. This car is now in Australia!

[racerVK]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

The VK (AVK005309A) that ran in the French Touring Car Championships driven by Guy Frequelin in 1986 was built in France. The components came from Australia, most from the HDT. This car is now in Australia!

Who owns this car now . Where does it reside . What other history do you know on it

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by racerVK

Who owns this car now . Where does it reside . What other history do you know on it

Don't know.
Victoria
That's it!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by KA

What puzzles me though is the mention of VKs- if they were building new cars from Holden Motorsport shells in the winter of 86/7, then why bother to build VKs and not go straight to VLs....

The only thing I can think of is that a couple of VKs were bought in from outside TWR for initial testing and assessment prior to building the actual race cars, or for some reason when the first test car was built it was easier to build it as a VK- maybe in late 86, before the VL was homologated?

TWR allegedly tested a Brock/Carurettor/VL and found that its aerokit generated lift instead of downforce, and was wonky to drive because of that...

If there were VK's in the TWR garage, they would likely have come from Roadways, Mr Small's equipe. I will ask next time I see him...

[Adrian B]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Don't know.
Victoria
That's it!

The French VK is now in NSW. It ran badged as a Opel Senator in the French series in 86.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by KA

Interesting- so if they weren't built by Serge Power themselves, or imported by them from Australia, we're talking about cars which were already in Europe by late 86/early 87.

We know the Grice car went to Mike O'Brien, so we're maybe looking at either two of the cars built for the aborted TWR WTCC programme, or possibly the cars HDT used in their 1986 ETCC programme, updated to VL-spec. Does anyone know if these stayed in Europe, or whether they went back to Australia?

The Serge Power cars might have come from TWR, but how early in the season did they get their cars, and at what point did TWR decide to not bother any further with the WTCC (remembering they rocked up at round 4 at the Nurburgring).

Did TWR keep any cars for testing and development for the '88 spec car? (It's been mentioned before that Roadways supplied a car for this as well to TWR)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Just a thought, if Peter Barnes' car was the same shape as the Rallycross VL in the pics on the last page, by any chance could the Barnes car be the ex-Mike O'Brien BTCC Commodore...?

Don't think it was the ex Grice Docking-O Brien car but i'm sure the Barnes car is in the background of a shot that sarnie posted about Modprods at Mallory in a Capri thread some time in last couple of years?

[Eddy V]

I'll try and find the guy I know who works for GLPK, what used to be Peka Racing (Mr. Kumpen). They were really the ones running the cars.
He should know who built them and where they came from.

I think 1 car still is somewhere in Belgium, but obviously I could be so very wrong.

[GBRM]

I can't remember what year this is but it's a test day at Silverstone, maybe '89 but Dad (Gerry Marshall) took these as I seem to remember one of his friends was going to buy it and they tested it; I'm fairly sure Dad drove it too.

[chunterer]

Yeah that's the ex Grice VK Mike O Brien pedalled in 1987 BTCC. Was entered by Clive Faine's Linden Racing but was actually prep'd by Alan Docking I think, who had looked after the car for Gricey the year before in ETC.

Looks stunning doesn't it?! Still remember getting excited about the car entering, begging my dad to take me to see it.

Running this car was probably a good bit of PR by Mike (always a good sponsor magnate I understand?) The series was a bit low on 'big' entrants and he probably thought that car might clean up and at least provide a good show for fans and tv! Had hoped it would be a 2 car team but alas it wasn't to be!

However the Rover's seemed pretty competitive in there last days and the Sierras had only just come out so the series was more competitive than anyone imagined.

[KA]

Originally Posted by GBRM

I can't remember what year this is but it's a test day at Silverstone, maybe '89 but Dad (Gerry Marshall) took these as I seem to remember one of his friends was going to buy it and they tested it; I'm fairly sure Dad drove it too.

Brilliant!!

Gregor, This is probably a bit of a long shot, but I don't suppose you remember whether your dad's friend did buy the Commodore, and if so, where it ended up? If he did, then your pics might have just raised an interesting question, particularly if the date might be as late as 1989....

If the car was sold on still in VK form, then the VL Mike O'Brien ran in 1988 might have been a different chassis, and not the ex-Grice VK updated, as I'd always thought....

[William Dale Jr]

Great photos!

Judging by the Shell Oils logos on the bridge, I'd say the photos are from 1987 or 1988, maybe early '89.

Also, the photos show that the car is definitely the ex-Grice ETCC car and not an ex-HDT car as suggested elsewhere (the Roadways build plate is there on the glovebox).

However, O'Brien's later VL had a VL dashboard, no Roadways build plate (not put onto the new dash, or not the Roadways VK at all?) and had a great, big 'HDT' logo on the steering wheel. Don't quite know how to explain that...

EDIT: Agreed KA, agreed.