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15 Apr 2013, 18:30 (Ref:3234799) | #1 | ||
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Cars built 'for' a certain driver's style
We often casually say that a team builds its car, and sets it up, around the no. 1 driver's requirements. But what does this actually mean in technical terms? I have two questions in particular, maybe someone can point me to some further reading on this:
(1) how much scope is there to adapt a car's setup once it has been built? Obviously, things like wheelbase or the blown diffusers that seemed to suit people like Vettel and Button can't be changed once implemented. (2) what are some drivers' preferred setups? I've read on here that several of Kimi's team mates regard his setups as undriveable. What characterises a 'Kimi setup'? How would Button, Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel differ in their approach to setting up the same car? I am aware of the basic (!) functions of springs, dampers, wings, tyres and how playing with them could alter a car's behaviour in various situations. |
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16 Apr 2013, 00:24 (Ref:3234971) | #2 | ||
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They are good questions and thank you for asking them. I am not technical enough to respond, but i will have a go..
I think we would have to ask the drivers, i believe that most drivers would prefer the car to feel fairly neutral. At the present time the tyres are playing a huge role, lots of head scratching.. I am not sure any team builds a car to suit a particular driver.. |
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16 Apr 2013, 00:55 (Ref:3234980) | #3 | ||
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Speaking of Button: Pre-season, he was talking about how he was taking full advantage of this time period to tell his engineers exactly what it was that he wanted from his 2013 car. Clearly it's doing something for him and not for his team mate. Although, in reality, it's not really doing much for either of them. |
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16 Apr 2013, 07:37 (Ref:3235091) | #4 | ||
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I know that Schumachter liked his cars twitchy and oversteered, wich made life difficult for his teammates. The tires as they are in this era must not have helped him one bit.
The way aero and tyres are make a difference in how much drifting is the fastest way around a corner. That can make a difference for drivers who feel more or less comfortable going sideways. |
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16 Apr 2013, 07:46 (Ref:3235098) | #5 | ||
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I don't think there can be a definitive answer, how do people like a cup of tea ?
I remember when I started in oval circuit racing I had a go in a competitor's car that was always beating me and found it was awful and I was a fair bit slower ! |
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16 Apr 2013, 09:16 (Ref:3235160) | #6 | ||
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I think that one of the fundamental issues is down to understeer & oversteer.
From what I've heard, some drivers (Like Button for example) prefer the stability of understeer/dislike the instability of oversteer and drive accordingly to this trait. Other drivers (Hamilton & Vettel for example) prefer a more pointy/oversteery chassis and use their driving style to capitalise on this. |
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16 Apr 2013, 10:43 (Ref:3235218) | #7 | |
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It is purely a balance thing I'd imagine.
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16 Apr 2013, 13:43 (Ref:3235301) | #8 | ||
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Michael Schumacher liked his cars built with spikes that come out from underneath the hubcaps, whereas Jacques Villeneuve preferred a bad-ass sound system with poweful subwoofer, and Eddie Irvine always wanted a decent cigarette lighter and ashtray.
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16 Apr 2013, 14:00 (Ref:3235315) | #9 | ||
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size of the driver has been an issue with the tub construction on several occasions.
i would also think that the directions that the updates take, which problems they hope to correct, takes into account one driver's preferences over the other one possibly more than in the initial construction. but as seasons go on those preferences in terms of updates would then get incorporated into the following years design. provided their is driver continuity. tricky questions though. not sure there is an answer even. |
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16 Apr 2013, 14:32 (Ref:3235325) | #10 | ||
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There have been numerous examples of this all the way back to Stewart ad the like.
I know for a fact that when Rosberg left McKLaren he always called the car a Prostc ar coz it was built around Alain's style of driving, fairly clear line of thinking there I guess. And the Benettons of 94/5 were the same which is why maybe Johnny, Jos and Lehto struggled abit with them, as they were designed around Michael. My issue was when Bridgestone started making pretty much Ferrari and Michael tyres while they were still supplying other teams! I would imagine cars like the Red Bull, Ferrari and Lotus this year might be designed around their lead drivers, (lol RB) but some of the guys further back maybe not? |
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16 Apr 2013, 14:41 (Ref:3235333) | #11 | ||
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Thanks for all your input. Could we become slightly more specific and technical - which driver wants which kind of adjustment? Or would this require information jealously guarded by drivers and teams?
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16 Apr 2013, 22:15 (Ref:3235517) | #12 | ||
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You'll probably need to ask Peter Windsor about that!
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17 Apr 2013, 01:33 (Ref:3235577) | #13 | ||
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17 Apr 2013, 13:50 (Ref:3235805) | #14 | |
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Oh God. Does most of that stuff he writes about reactive drivers and what-have-you make sense? I've always sensed it a bit too precise to be accurate (but I'm not an engineer; then again, neither is he, hence my slight scepticism).
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17 Apr 2013, 15:02 (Ref:3235833) | #15 | |
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Most drivers just want a car that's quicker than everyone elses, regardless of whether it oversteers, understeers, or whatever.
Most of us should be able to remember as far back as the 2005/6 seasons and wonder how the hell Alonso managed to win two championships in a Renault that had what could only be described as terminal understeer every time he so much as tweaked the steering wheel! |
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17 Apr 2013, 16:35 (Ref:3235862) | #16 | ||
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Yep I do remember !
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17 Apr 2013, 18:30 (Ref:3235897) | #17 | |
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I'm also reminded, more recently, that Adrian Newey would tell Sebastian Vettel what changes had been made to the car and how he should drive it now that it had different handling characteristics. So there's obviously more going on with regard to the car than anything that the driver might actually want. At least in that particular case. It is also believed that this is one of the reasons why Webber can't make the tyres last on his car......when it's running, that is.
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17 Apr 2013, 19:30 (Ref:3235913) | #18 | ||
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Indeed, this sort of self indulgent twaddle (and Schuey buying sjyscrapers in the news section) contributed greatly to my subscription cancellation!
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17 Apr 2013, 22:23 (Ref:3235974) | #19 | |
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THE FRICTION CIRCLE!
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18 Apr 2013, 09:11 (Ref:3236085) | #20 | |||
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As to the OP, there range of setup options on even a simple race car is bewildering. You can have one chassis and make it perform in a vast variety of different ways. e.g. Suspension geometry. Often you will be able to change the mount points of the wishbones to give different camber/caster changes on movement. And of course you can set static caster/camber/toe in to whatever you want anyway. Damper adjustment. You can change the stiffness of the dampers in bound and separately in rebound. Springs (currently torsion bar in F1)- variable spring rate, overall stiffness Anti rollbars. These can be adjusted, often whilst driving. And with the front back stuff (FRIC) this is even more complicated. Ride height. Important with high aero. Brake balance. Steering speed and ackerman settings. Tyre pressures. Tyre specification - different tyres turning up each race... Now, take all those values, and work out all the different combinations (many!), and you'll see why it's an arcane art, and why the testing ban leaves a lot to guesswork (and simulation) |
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18 Apr 2013, 10:16 (Ref:3236120) | #21 | |||
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18 Apr 2013, 11:59 (Ref:3236161) | #22 | ||
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19 Apr 2013, 07:13 (Ref:3236514) | #23 | |||
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"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!" |
19 Apr 2013, 08:29 (Ref:3236541) | #24 | |
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Adrian Newey recently said on the BBC that he designs a car with the sole intent of making it as fast as possible within the given regulations. The drivers individual styles are always secondary and the team then look at ways to help the drivers adapt to what has been designed. Some drivers are better at adapting their styles than others. Newey said he never designs a car around one particular driver because the regulations are restrictive enough as they are. The driver has a job to do too.
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19 Apr 2013, 12:48 (Ref:3236644) | #25 | |||
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