Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6 Mar 2016, 11:43 (Ref:3620534)   #26
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,345
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DX20VT View Post
reading rule 9.4.6 and 9.4.7 together,
does it state that the race starts at the end of the lap after the safety car pulls in? being THAT lap
As that would have been quite a few laps into the race in that case?
The SC rules also state that all laps led by the SC will be counted as race laps. Does seem to me that 9.4.7 could confuse someone who only ready that rule in isolation.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 6 Mar 2016, 13:46 (Ref:3620551)   #27
RedZedMikey
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Australia
Victoria, Australia
Posts: 364
RedZedMikey should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by DX20VT View Post
reading rule 9.4.6 and 9.4.7 together,
does it state that the race starts at the end of the lap after the safety car pulls in? being THAT lap
As that would have been quite a few laps into the race in that case?
Relevant rules section: Click me

I think the problem goes back to rules that are poorly written allowing different interpretations. After reading the rules for both normal and safety car starts, I think one issue is that the race was originally intended to start under normal conditions, and was switched to a safety car start after the completion of the formation lap. I can't see that situation covered by the rules ... and I could be wrong.

Firstly, under 9.1.10 or 9.2.9 (normal start), 25 out of 26 cars were correctly positioned to be considered under starter's orders - 21 on the grid and 4 at pit exit. This is 3-5 seconds before the actual race start.

Under normal conditions, the race is considered started when the red lights go out (9.1.11 or 9.2.10).

Cars starting at pit exit may start the race only on the direction of an Official, and after the rest of the field has passed the Pit Lane exit (9.1.14 or 9.2.13)

Surely this is what happened today, except under a safety car start.

However, under a safety car start, when said red lights go out, the cars are said to be under starters orders (9.4.3), so there is the start of the muddle.

As stated above, we then have the 9.4.7 and 9.4.7.1 rules. One literal interpretation of those 2 rules is that the 4 cars at pit exit prior to the safety car leaving on lap 1 is that those 4 cars should not have been under starter's orders until lap 6 ... ridiculous! And also not in keeping with the general intent of the starting from pit exit rules above.

Some simple rewording and re-positioning of the 9.4 set of rules would resolve it? Possibly along the lines of:

1) Change the wording in 9.4.3 so it says the race is started under full course yellow behind the safety car (instead of under starters orders).
2) Leave 9.4.4, 9.4.5 and 9.4.6 as is.
3) Reword 9.4.7 to say "The race will be move from FCY to green flag condition when the leading Car crosses the Control Line at the end of that lap."
4) Move and reword 9.4.7.1 to become 9.4.3.1 Cars starting from Pit Lane exit may enter the circuit only on the direction of an Official, and after the rest of the field has passed the Pit Lane exit.
And if required, add an extra timing point before 9.4.3 to differentiate cars coming under starter's orders, and the race starting under FCY.

Just my opinions, I'm not a lawyer nor an expert interpreter of legalese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chavez
Schenken and co should do themselves a favour and review each rule and decide whether it adds to the sport. ?
Agreed!
RedZedMikey is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Mar 2016, 19:42 (Ref:3620603)   #28
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
Heres something a bit dodgy, penalty is now 60 seconds not 30 seconds for fabian and pye. put them back 2 further spots, still thats really bad
Why was it 30, now 60? Does anyone know the rules? Shambles
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Mar 2016, 21:08 (Ref:3620663)   #29
mayhem
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Aruba
On that Island in LOST.
Posts: 3,219
mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Word is tomorrow it will be a 1 minute 20 penalty.

What a mess.
mayhem is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Mar 2016, 21:57 (Ref:3620681)   #30
Terry S
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 421
Terry S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
PLEASE HELP!!!! Where does one find the V8 Supercars rules and regulations on the web?

I seem to have looked everywhere?
Terry S is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Mar 2016, 22:20 (Ref:3620686)   #31
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,345
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
PLEASE HELP!!!! Where does one find the V8 Supercars rules and regulations on the web?

I seem to have looked everywhere?
They're on the V8 website. Click on the "Championship" tab, then on "Rules & cars" and there you are.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 6 Mar 2016, 23:04 (Ref:3620692)   #32
CDM
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 249
CDM should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Why was it 30, now 60? Does anyone know the rules? Shambles
The whole thing was a bloody shambles.... VERY unprofessional looking.

It was a disaster right from the get-go with no-one even knowing if the race had started.

Also was Bargs asleep for those first part of the race? Why does some simple stuff need to be investigated post race.

Then it seemed that no-one knew the rules on the fuel dump thing, let alone the penalty. Personally I think its tough when a race is shortened.
Maybe 140 litre if the race goes full distance, needs to be done on a percentage scale. (70 litres if the race is called at 50%, 105L @ 75% etc etc)

The commentators either need to know the rules or shut up and as for changing the penalty after the event.... FFS what an amateur operation!

I really expected more from such a big & supposedly professional outfit.
CDM is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 02:13 (Ref:3620722)   #33
bortall
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Australia
West Gippsland
Posts: 469
bortall should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Does the fuel dump rules apply to all the races this year or just the longer races?

I also assume this isn't a rule in the ops manual, but a supplemental reg for the relevant race?
bortall is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 02:40 (Ref:3620727)   #34
TSR
Veteran
 
TSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Australia
Sutherland Shire
Posts: 4,182
TSR has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Perhaps Tim Schenken & Holden Bargs and all the other officials could take a leaf out of the NRL with its new Bunker, it has being given great praise after 1 round.
TSR is offline  
__________________
2015 V8Supercar Champion #5 PDA Mark Frosty Winterbottom
To Finish First, First you must Finish
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 02:43 (Ref:3620729)   #35
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bortall View Post
Does the fuel dump rules apply to all the races this year or just the longer races?

I also assume this isn't a rule in the ops manual, but a supplemental reg for the relevant race?
relates to certain races

Operations Manual

However, during the Sunday race at the Clipsal 500 Adelaide, the Skycity Triple Crown Darwin and all SuperSprint events, as well as both races at the Castrol EDGE Townsville 400 and Coates Hire Sydney 500, a minimum quantity fuel drop exists. This means that for the specified race, all cars will need to deliver the correct amount of fuel during pit stops. Please see following table for further detail.
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 02:47 (Ref:3620730)   #36
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I just watched a replay of the start again

Watched the lap counter in the coverage click over to lap 4, then about 30 seconds later it flicked to lap 5

My understanding is that originally a lap wasnt being counted under the first lap under the safety car (ie warm up lap), the timing started on the 2nd lap under safety car as Lap 1 of the race and then on the 5th lap under safety car they changed the timing from lap 4 of the race to lap 5 of the race
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 03:00 (Ref:3620735)   #37
Terry S
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 421
Terry S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
They're on the V8 website. Click on the "Championship" tab, then on "Rules & cars" and there you are.
Thanks for the advice, I never would have found.

I've gone thru their 2016 Operations Manual from Div A to Div F and can't seem to find any mention of the penalty for not loading 140L of fuel.

Can anyone please help?

Also why was the penalty changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in the middle of the night.
Terry S is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 03:22 (Ref:3620740)   #38
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
Thanks for the advice, I never would have found.

I've gone thru their 2016 Operations Manual from Div A to Div F and can't seem to find any mention of the penalty for not loading 140L of fuel.

Can anyone please help?

Also why was the penalty changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in the middle of the night.
you need the table of penalties to determine that, I dont believe they are in the operations manual or maybe even the international sporting code of the FIA

as per definitions in Division A
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 03:49 (Ref:3620748)   #39
Terry S
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 421
Terry S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
you need the table of penalties to determine that, I dont believe they are in the operations manual or maybe even the international sporting code of the FIA

as per definitions in Division A
What a Mickey Mouse organisation. So the penalties are a SECRET.

No wonder Pye and Coulthard were confused at the end of the race. Imagine Tim Cendric ringing back to Roger Penske that we really cam second and third but now they have some secret penalty they have made up which drops us way down the field.

And what of the viewing public perception. There was poor Crompton on live TV trying to find penalties that aren't in the book. You could hear his great frustration clearly as he made several attempts.

And as I said above if it is all so clear why was it changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds overnight?
Terry S is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 04:02 (Ref:3620755)   #40
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,345
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
What a Mickey Mouse organisation. So the penalties are a SECRET.

No wonder Pye and Coulthard were confused at the end of the race. Imagine Tim Cendric ringing back to Roger Penske that we really cam second and third but now they have some secret penalty they have made up which drops us way down the field.

And what of the viewing public perception. There was poor Crompton on live TV trying to find penalties that aren't in the book. You could hear his great frustration clearly as he made several attempts.

And as I said above if it is all so clear why was it changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds overnight?
I don't believe that the penalties are a total secret - the teams are exposed to them and the penalties themselves are set before each season by the Commission, which has team reps on it.

The stewards have a range of penalties available to them and apply the penalties depending on the circumstances - some are straightforward (such as pit lane speeding) some more involved.

Where it falls down is when (as in this case) a commentator is trying to make a live call during a race on what penalty might be applied. That might be in regard to on track incidents, pit lane breaches etc.

Clearly the results at the conclusion of the race had some penalties applied by the stewards - those results immediately after the race are never final and are subject to protests, further stewards hearings etc.

Clearly after further investigation by the stewards the decision was taken that a penalty of 60 seconds was the go for those that didn't fuel.

It's all due process but jeez it's not a good look - made worse by the commentators having NFI in regard to a number of rules through the race, clearly not getting good advice from their assistants and the wide range of confusion that often comes with severe weather conditions such as those seen on Sunday.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 04:05 (Ref:3620756)   #41
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
What a Mickey Mouse organisation. So the penalties are a SECRET.

No wonder Pye and Coulthard were confused at the end of the race. Imagine Tim Cendric ringing back to Roger Penske that we really cam second and third but now they have some secret penalty they have made up which drops us way down the field.

And what of the viewing public perception. There was poor Crompton on live TV trying to find penalties that aren't in the book. You could hear his great frustration clearly as he made several attempts.

And as I said above if it is all so clear why was it changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds overnight?
No one said it was a secret, its just not in the operations manual.


it was changed because the stewards found that the penalty was not significant enough, Not the first time this has happened, wont be the last, Stewards are always able to look at penalties post race

This happens all through the legal structure of Australia
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 04:10 (Ref:3620757)   #42
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,345
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
Thanks for the advice, I never would have found.

I've gone thru their 2016 Operations Manual from Div A to Div F and can't seem to find any mention of the penalty for not loading 140L of fuel.

Can anyone please help?

Also why was the penalty changed from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in the middle of the night.
All good. The ops manual has been on the V8 website for years, interestingly they used to also have sup regs for each event there but they've stopped doing that for some reason.

The applicable penalties might be in the sup regs.

In regard to the change of penalty after the race (not the middle of the night) please see my post above.

Gotta say that it was a messy Sunday at Clipsal, no doubt about it.

In my view it is made worse by the powers that be getting too cute on the time certain cutoff - it seems to only take a small delay or SC period to move a race into time certain status and to me that is just wrong. It time certain was based on an extra half hour over expected completion, that would probably make more sense.

To me, the 140 litre requirement has always been something of a problem - if some engines aren't competitive on fuel consumption, then they need to adjust their engines and strategy accordingly.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 04:56 (Ref:3620764)   #43
Alan52
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Glenmore Park
Posts: 1,634
Alan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAlan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR View Post
Perhaps Tim Schenken & Holden Bargs and all the other officials could take a leaf out of the NRL with its new Bunker, it has being given great praise after 1 round.
Put Schenken and Bargwanna in the bunker then lock the doors and cut off all communications.Schenken has a history of bringing out the safety car for entertainment value and Bargwanna should have been made to walk the plank after Van Gisbergen taking out Reynolds last year.
Alan52 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 05:02 (Ref:3620765)   #44
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
My understanding is that originally a lap wasnt being counted under the first lap under the safety car (ie warm up lap), the timing started on the 2nd lap under safety car as Lap 1 of the race and then on the 5th lap under safety car they changed the timing from lap 4 of the race to lap 5 of the race
See it's so simple, why couldn't the average punter 5 beers deep at home work that out???
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 07:35 (Ref:3620790)   #45
chavez
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Australia
The Basin, Victoria
Posts: 2,829
chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
See it's so simple, why couldn't the average punter 5 beers deep at home work that out???
Of course they should be able.

Bill Tuckey would often write the Motorsport was the most misunderstood sport and sadly on Sunday we saw why.

I have never seen compulsory pit stops add anything of value to any part of the sport.

Set a race distance and let the teams manage how they get there.
chavez is offline  
__________________
"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 07:46 (Ref:3620794)   #46
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
See it's so simple, why couldn't the average punter 5 beers deep at home work that out???
Look i agree that they messed up the start according to the rules. I said that in the clipsal thread at the time and as soon as it started to my son. They need to go over this procedure and get this right next time. Naughty them.

But it was clear to all that the race had started under safety car. just some teams wanted to argue about it and others dealt with it

But that was the only issue.

140 litres in is the rules, everyone knew it, was well explained, some teams dealt with it better than others. Should we have that rule, Would prefer not to, but it has a purpose (although is the purpose still relevant (needs investigation)) But to have some halfarsed variations that may or may not affect the race is not the answer. That just makes things worse.

It was right to start the race under SC (it sucks, but it was right), it was right to call it out again when they did, it was right to have a red flag, it was right to re-start when they did. No-one likes timed finishes, but they are a necessary evil. They got the call right in my opinion with SVG, but im 60:40 on it. (incidents like that are always grey)

Did i mention that triple 8 messed up and LDM showed they understood the rules better (the richman and the pauper)
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 08:03 (Ref:3620798)   #47
Samwhk
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
New Zealand
Posts: 397
Samwhk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
After watching the race (recorded, had a prior engagement), mulling it over for 24 hours, and reading a lot of comments and articles, I think everything was probably handled as well as it could be.
The only thing that needs to change, in my very humble opinion, is the time certain finish.
Why not start EVERY race with at least an hour extra at the end of the expected finish? The production team are more than capable of filling hours upon hours over the weekend with waffle, so why not build in a buffer around the most important part of the weekend?
Ratings blah blah, any business person knows that repeat business if the best business. Keep the customers happy and they'll come back for more. Even if it hurts you a little in the short term.
If that race hadn't been time certain, all other arguments, apart from maybe SVG v JC, would never have been brought up.
Samwhk is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 08:18 (Ref:3620803)   #48
Tourer
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 4,345
Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!Tourer is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samwhk View Post
After watching the race (recorded, had a prior engagement), mulling it over for 24 hours, and reading a lot of comments and articles, I think everything was probably handled as well as it could be.
The only thing that needs to change, in my very humble opinion, is the time certain finish.
Why not start EVERY race with at least an hour extra at the end of the expected finish? The production team are more than capable of filling hours upon hours over the weekend with waffle, so why not build in a buffer around the most important part of the weekend?
Ratings blah blah, any business person knows that repeat business if the best business. Keep the customers happy and they'll come back for more. Even if it hurts you a little in the short term.
If that race hadn't been time certain, all other arguments, apart from maybe SVG v JC, would never have been brought up.
I'm with you - I think that they've got far, far too cute with the gap between estimated finish time in dry conditions and the time certain finish time. It should be at least half an hour but an hour as you suggest wouldn't go astray. They've made it worse by starting races later which puts more pressure in the telecaster before their evening news.

If time-certain didn't come into play, the rest of the "issues" would have been non-issues. Mind you, I'm still not a fan of the whole compulsory fuel amount.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2016, 08:53 (Ref:3620815)   #49
one five five
Veteran
 
one five five's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,261
one five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridone five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samwhk View Post
Why not start EVERY race with at least an hour extra at the end of the expected finish? The production team are more than capable of filling hours upon hours over the weekend with waffle, so why not build in a buffer around the most important part of the weekend?
Ratings blah blah, any business person knows that repeat business if the best business. Keep the customers happy and they'll come back for more. Even if it hurts you a little in the short term.
It's a rare occurence that something like yesterday happens. The ratings are (it would seem) better if you run the races as close to 6pm as possible (although i don't know if that works as well with the current TV deal, given that neither network has a 6pm news service)
one five five is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Apr 2016, 10:42 (Ref:3629812)   #50
chavez
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Australia
The Basin, Victoria
Posts: 2,829
chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Race control throws a yellow flag for a broken mirror on the track but doesn't throw the yellow for multiple cars parked at the end of a 200 kmh straight with oil on the track.

So is a finish under green flag conditions is more important than safety?
chavez is offline  
__________________
"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can local Race Control over rule visiting Race Director ?? PVDA Marshals Forum 20 16 Jun 2014 19:09
Race control to race car radio communications. Al Weyman Racers Forum 145 13 Dec 2009 17:53
marshalls/ race control crspaffo A1GP 2 27 Oct 2005 02:39
Race Control ruin another race Buckshot Australasian Touring Cars. 72 21 Oct 2003 23:17
Oulton Park Race Control Mark Mitchell Marshals Forum 10 23 Apr 2003 17:20


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.