The super Coupe Cup needs saving but HOW

[Fishy]

For me to get on to a web site forum I believe things must be desperately bad.
to the point. What ever form the proposed new rules/ regs take to attract more drivers for 2005 the regs must have the effect of keeping costs down to a minimum to compete and I mean compete,not just going round and round geting ****ed off by cars that are quicker only because the driver has spent twice as much.(within the new rules).I dont really have any ideas as how to structure regs (not my normal job!) that can be so tightly scrutinered and allow a great number of different saloons all to compete in a simple class structure. What I do know is that the old multiple one make class structure AND their individual regs did allow scrutineers who cared to learn about a few makes of cars to keep a level playing field IF those regs were implemented forcefully.
I need all your ideas so I can "help" the BRSCC put together a truly great championship, one that drivers want to race in and be associated with and enjoy the sport. Mark Fish.

[Ian Sowman]

Fishy, what is the basic plan? Is Super Coupe being widened out still further?

My view is that the BRSCC should merge it with the Euro/Road Saloons...

[Fishy]

Basically Ian their out line plan is to have a very simple production car type class structure. ie 1600cc 2000cc. the present classes would all be abandoned therefore the idea to open to just about all cars. The 5GT,polo, vento ,vectra and possibly other present classes would be out.
If I thought the grids would fill up wih fresh cars and drivers with these outline plans in place Iwuold be very happy. I dont think it will. Or if it did the drivers would soon find it to expesive to compete and exit sharp right. Mark

[Redlake27]

The BRSCC should merge it with Euro Saloons and also talk to the 750MC about integrating Hot Hatch, which is a pale shadow of Stock Hatch, but has some nicely turned out cars that would look at home in Super Coupe.

Then we would have two national club saloon series, which in simple terms would cater for sub 1600 cars like Saxo, 106, 205,XR2 etc (Stock) and one for bigger cars, such as Tomcats, Ventos, old Gp N or BTC-P cars, etc etc.

As other championships fall in numbers in coming years (such as Fiats, Cupras etc) they could find a home in one of these before it is too late to keep them alive. And conversely, if one type of car from one of these championships were regularly able to attract 20 or more of the same the MSA could allow them to break away to form a one make series again. But whilst there are less than 20 of each on a regular basis, mix 'em up and give them longer races instead

[R59]

Mark,

Like Ian, I wouldn't mind betting that Super Coupes will eventually get swallowed up into the Euro-Saloons.

No matter what you do in terms of regs, there will always be someone who will throw more money at it than normal mortals can muster, which in the long run encourages more spending and the impending death of the series.

I'm in the situation where I have a car (ex-Thundersaloon Vauxhall Belmont/Chevy V8) with no "proper" series to run it in.

No matter how hard we've shouted on here, and in other areas, have we rekindled enough interest in kick-starting Thundersaloons in some shape or form again, regardless of how awesome the cars are for spectator appeal. If you can't get the cars, you can't run a series.

Eurosaloons is going to end up as the clubbie bucket for discarded championships, and with it will go any status that the championships may have had in the past.

Harping on about Thundersaloons again, they were once second only to BTCC. Now, nothing.

The other issue is the age of the cars in SuperCoupes. In the words of J R Hartley - they are rather old.... Do you want to be running a series where the cars are like the old Renault 5 TS's which consisted of more filler than steel by the end of it! They looked OK from the trackside, but up close, I've seen tidier cars at autograss meetings!

Difficult subject, with difficult answers.

Best of luck.

Rob.

[Chris Y]

Welcome to the forums, Mark.

Hard times are upon us indeed when the Super Coupe Cup asks for help. Perhaps another indication that club racing in this country is in serious trouble.

Although I think the cars will eventually end up merged with other series, I think it's a shame. Perhaps a Tomcat cannot compete with a Vectra if the rules are relaxed, and there isn't a seperate 'class' for them - thereby providing less incentive for the Tomcat owners to show at race meetings. This could happen to a few other car types as well, and the overall grid size suffers. Is the decision to drop the existing classes reversible? Who is making that decision?

[avro]

Whilst it is dissapointing that we are seeing good saloon series finishing, we need to see it as moving on, and that you can have just as much enjoyment as before.

We know as weve been there, having raced as part of Formula Saloons from the start we moved into the 2004 Euro Saloons, yes we found it a step down, no garages not as much kudos, but and its a big but, we have enjoyed this year far better, our costs are right down as we are not chasing the elusive half a second, we have a very keen and good sponsor, we get good track time, driving standards are good, but we just need more cars out.

Please do not see the Euro Saloons as the end of the road, come and join us and have some fun.

And can we please see a few positive replys, if the sponsor (Le Mans Motorsport)keep reading the negative points they might ask 'what are we doing', then we will be in trouble.

[Ian Sowman]

I would be very happy for Euro Saloons to thrive, albeit possibly with a different name (drop the Euro...). To do that, it needs to be THE BRSCC saloon car championship catering for everything that can't stand on its own two feet (Alfas, Mighty Minis, the Ford Series, and Fiats - depending on how they are looking).

Great though it was only a couple of years ago, Super Coupe has been in gradual decline in the way that Road Saloons and Auto Italia were shortly before. So just as Super Coupe successfully amalgamated various one make series, so 'Euro Saloons' should sweep up this little lot as well. There should be no more than three or four classes, and perhaps they could be based on power to weight ratio (as I think the BMW series uses) - although I'm not sure how feasible this is, just a thought. If you get too many cars for one race - great, run two.

[peter thurston]

The only answer to all these problems with class's is if it has four wheels and a roof then you race. Class's can be sorted from lap times in practice. Anybody found to be flunking it to be flogged in the paddock after racing.This way we would put some fun back into racing and hopefully keep club racing alive and kicking.Anybody found to be fixing it just so they can be flogged ,to start the next meeting with a penalty,maybe the wife in the passenger seat.What do you think.

[djinvicta]

You are out to play tonight eh Pete? No Camaros though!

[Les]

This is really sad to think the Super coupes are in trouble. I know so many people who started in it and then moved on.
I must admit I never managed to get to a round this year (always clashed) but did the numbers drop that bad?

[peter thurston]

Dave ,Im serious,all these series stopping is bad news but all this talking does not solve it. keep the cars racing.When you have full grids then you start to think about class restructures etc.Full grids in turn will bring the entry fee's down then more people will come out and it snowballs on.

[djinvicta]

Talking here aint getting cars on grids. How many on 10 10 members have cars to race, in pieces or ready to race?

[Slippy Diff]

Survival of the fittest if you ask me. It is a shame that a well supported series is going down the pan, but oh well. There are way way too many race series/championships being run at the moment that are not well supported and in my opinion the club racing scene could do with thinning out.
Also you can't stop people throwing money at their race cars if they want to win. It is a fact of racing, bigger the cheque book, the faster the car.......normally as it depends on who is behind the wheel.

On another note, didn't the MSA implement something a couple of years ago to the effect that any race series that could only muster a low average of competitors at each meeting would be scrapped??

[Ian Sowman]

Not scrapped - have their championship status withdrawn. Doesn't stop running as a 'series' without points.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally posted by Ian Sowman
Not scrapped - have their championship status withdrawn. Doesn't stop running as a 'series' without points.

Thanks.

[Fishy]

Thank you all so far for your comments etc,
I have run out of time today to study and reply to try and keep these comments coming in. BUT
What comes to mind is, why do drivers race in one particular championship or another. there are of course many reasons. Cost I would say is still number one. Can compete with, lets say a minimum of five cars. etc etc. When we do really know what the drivers want, lets create the rules etc to suit. Yes maybe old cars out, but they are plentiful, cheap as chips and just as much fun to race. Yes not as much driveway/picture status but does that matter to the younger or newer drivers who do not seem to be attracted in to the sport at all?
time for sleep , Fishy.

[Simon Mason]

Hi Mark, nice to see your motivation is still there.

I was once a big fan of Super Coupe. But have just made a commitment to return racing in 05 with a MaX5 car I'm building. My point being and in answer to your question, super coupe is now TOO diverse. When it was for the old one make cars such as 5 Turbo's, CRX's, Rover GTi etc it was a great series because give or take minor differences the cars were very similar on pace. Very few people want to race the slowest car in a championship.

I believe any body who races wants to believe that they have a fair chance at running at the front. I don't mean everyone wants to win but I do mean everyone wants to know that their car is'nt a milion miles off should the opportunity and experience arise.

To be a success a championship has to stick to its core value and most importantly ..... championship pace. To be fair I think most of the cars in Super Coupe are now becoming costly to run relative to the goals of the people that own them so that is'nt helping, but add that to a "you aren't go to win anything other than a class" and suddenly you have less motivation.

[Fishy]

Hello Simon, I trust you are well.
I could not agree with you more. Much to my suprise when the one makes were brought into the coupe cup over a period of a few years, the drivers of the different makes did not seem to mind running around with other makes getting in the way on track. I think they put up with this because there was always enough of each make to have a battle with and feel satisfied at the end of the race, that they had a race.
A class win against say 8 other one make cars can be a great achievement.
To answer Chris Y question, as we speak Iam not sure if the class structure has been set in stone. A Vectra driver told me today how upset he was that his class was being ruled out of the championship.He is not the only one for sure.
I agree let natural evolution take its course in terms of the most popular championships florish and the poor ones die off. Yes there maybe too many championships in the uk,thinning out any sponsership money for each championship. Has not the strength of british motorsport been its diversity and to some extent its quantity (as well as quality.)
Things do change (just as well sometimes) . The huge spectator interest in touring cars came and went. 50 car race enties in the super coupe cup have also come and gone. Many reasons for each. We need to bring back the motivation and the numbers other wise British motorsport will go down the pan like many other things have, or is it just natural evolution, we are on the way down? Now I ve got a head ache. But tomorrow is always another day. Mark

[Simon Mason]

Just thought but........ do you have a car that you can put into Britcar? Their pretty open on car types like the ones you run and Britcar is definately on the up for the next few years ;-). If you have or can get a DC2 Integra GrpN spec, current shape Clio cup car or similar type cars, someone with your reputation would thrive I'm very confident.

Just a thought.

[RickP:Clio51]

If it helps I have a current shape Clio cup car in rebuild... Euro spec, do you good price...
Actually as a Super-Coupe grad I'd be very sorry to see it go. The appeal was the low value of the cars, we were paying £3- 3.5k each for the 5 turbos I raced, it was cheaper to bin them than insure them and you could win a season on £12k including a fresh car.
When I made a one-off return to the series in 2000 at Thruxton, I noted that a) the safety protection in the cars had been seriously superceeded and b) Running around Church with a Rover 220 towering over your French tin-can didn't feel particularly safe because of the difference in mass/crumple zones.
So what do drivers look for? A level playing field, and low running costs. Any championship where someone can bung money at his engine tuner and defeat you regardless of talent is not a place to showcase your talent as a youngster.
The Supercoupe needs to move on with the times, yet remain true to its roots. Pension off some of the older classes but there'll be a good supply of Clio cup cars at the end of this year that can be brought in as a freestanding class. But I must admit I struggle to think of any other recently pensioned off manufacturer one make series that could be brought in to fill the void.
I guess the solution is to take the cars along to Mr Tucker or negotiate a seperate class within Britcars or on his timetable?
(As an aside, for those who don't know Fishys reputation, I drove his cars in 1997-8-9 in the Super Coupe Cup, 2000 in the UK clio cup when the team won the Championship and 2001-2002 in the European Clio V6's. In this time, I had 1 (yes one) mechanical failure on a car, which was my own fault for disregarding his advice on a turbo rebuild. Impressive stuff.)
Cheers Rick

[Ian Sowman]

Originally posted by RickP:Clio51
But I must admit I struggle to think of any other recently pensioned off manufacturer one make series that could be brought in to fill the void.
I guess the solution is to take the cars along to Mr Tucker or negotiate a seperate class within Britcars or on his timetable?

Couple of things...

There's not been any manufacturer-backed one make saloon series other than the SEATs and Clios for a while (as far as I can remember); and I'm not sure longer Britcar races is what everyone wants to do. Some might, sure, but there's still a definite market for the traditional 15-minute sprint.

[Simon Mason]

Of course theres a traditional market for the sprints but sadly the cars/drivers Fishy is conected to can't support it anymore!

Hence in this particular circomstance I would suggest Britcar is where he needs to be. There are a large number of drivers floating around hiring cars for these types of races and most of them run with teams in one form or another.

[Fishy]

Hello Rick, I must make that return phone call!
Since I last posted things super coupe have moved on. Because of lack of time to impliment any well worked through regs / classes, the organisers are reverting back to the one make rules with some sensible tweeks in some areas. This has pleased me not because of it reverting back to the old "safe ground" but to some common sense.
The good news is we are assured there is a major series sponser coming on board for 2005. This with the new tweeks will definitely propel this championship forward.
The sooner this can all be made public the better.
With many drivers etc telling me how good Brit car is Iwill give it a much closer look. BUT is brit car not a cheque book championship, certainly it has a large following and it has a frendly more laid back atmoshere than some, how can you police that lot technically. I still state that the costs to compete will esculate and james will need fresh blood regularily to keep up the numbers long term, unless he can finds the magic balance of low cost/value and competativeness. Regards Fishy.

[ss_collins]

I think thats a daft situation - I say scrap em all! Whats the point in a 'series'