Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 20 Apr 2014, 06:48 (Ref:3395352)   #101
Ian Sowman
Veteran
 
Ian Sowman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location:
Birmingham
Posts: 5,968
Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Just going on the footage, I would have been surprised if a red flag had been called for that. I understand that there had been yellow flags for a couple of laps, and I would have expected that there was a caution board once those had been removed, so there isn't a great deal of excuse for any following drivers to have had an accident at that part of the circuit. Not a splendid piece of journalism, either.
Ian Sowman is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 08:09 (Ref:3395396)   #102
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Sowman View Post
Just going on the footage, I would have been surprised if a red flag had been called for that. I understand that there had been yellow flags for a couple of laps, and I would have expected that there was a caution board once those had been removed, so there isn't a great deal of excuse for any following drivers to have had an accident at that part of the circuit. Not a splendid piece of journalism, either.
Yup indeed, knowing the corner and having seen Many incidents there and spent plenty of years watching at that corner, I wouldn't have expected a red flag for it. I can understand the drivers being incredibly sore about it....I would be if my pride and joy had just been wrecked, however to slam the officials and place all the blame on them, when the drivers put the cars in those positions it's wholly wrong...if it's indeed 'just a free practice' as the drivers state then why push so hard on a part of the track where you know there is already a car off the circuit?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, as asp said if the drivers had kept the cars on the track then there wouldn't be anything to talk about. Racing and risk is about percentages, I've seen plenty of cars off in worse positions that haven't been hit, and some that have been pushed back into a gap in yeh Armco and still somehow got hit by another car
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:18 (Ref:3395432)   #103
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sorry but anyone that says that car is in a safe place is completely wrong. If it was in a safe place then why is there a tyre barrier? 2 McLarens were written off there last year.

All the drivers came into the pits expecting a red flag that never came. Poor decision by race control and bad information supplied by the marshals.
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:26 (Ref:3395434)   #104
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
Sorry but anyone that says that car is in a safe place is completely wrong. If it was in a safe place then why is there a tyre barrier? 2 McLarens were written off there last year.

All the drivers came into the pits expecting a red flag that never came. Poor decision by race control and bad information supplied by the marshals.
I don't think anyone is suggesting it was In a 'safe' place...nowhere is 'safe', cars go off on straight bits and hit the Armco. In all the years ive stood at that corner, I can count on 1 hand how many times I've seen a car in that position, so percentage wise it was probably considered 'safe' where as the drivers and yourself are basing your assumption of 'safe' on 2 meetings a year apart

And before slandering/slagging off the marshals I assume that you know EXACTLY what information the marshals gave to race control? I've known a lot of decisions/suggestions by marshals made n the ground being overruled by race control!...suggest you retract your innacurate and offensive comment

Last edited by ascarracinguk; 20 Apr 2014 at 09:32.
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:31 (Ref:3395436)   #105
Asp
Race Official
Veteran
 
Asp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
England
Cumbria, UK
Posts: 4,697
Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
Poor decision by race control and bad information supplied by the marshals.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with the second part of this sentence. If it was a poor decision by race control or not is a matter of opinion - and respecting the fact that I wasn't there and have only seen one video of it (and angles do distort the real picture) I am not going to comment on this specific incident. But no-one can comment on what information was supplied by the marshals, as we don't know what was said!
In any event, Oulton Park is now covered by CCTV so Race Control presumably did look at it themselves and made a decision based on a combination of what they could see on camera; what the reports from the relevant post said; and other relevant factors.
Asp is offline  
__________________
DDMC Rescue Crew, Post Chief & Flag Marshal
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:33 (Ref:3395438)   #106
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm pretty well informed from both parties. I know the Porsche driver repeatedly asked the marshals to red flag it to which their response was no. Race Control admitted afterwards they should of red flagged it as the car was in a place of danger. Think blame is quite easily laid at their feet.
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:35 (Ref:3395441)   #107
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
And exactly what information was passed on from the marshals? You've just repeated exactly what was in the article....I can do that and be just as informed.

So you don't think ANY of the blame lies at the drivers feet for spinning off in the first place, and then pushing too hard and crashing into a car that you KNOW is there, in his own words in an 'unsafe position', if it's that unsafe, back off, don't push to get a faster time!
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:40 (Ref:3395446)   #108
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You've lost me? The marshals were saying it wasn't a red flag... So it wasn't. And now we know that was a bad decision. So the marshals and race control have caused 200k of damage. 4 GT cars in 2 meetings at OP at the corner should be enough to highlight that area of barrier as high risk.
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:41 (Ref:3395447)   #109
Asp
Race Official
Veteran
 
Asp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
England
Cumbria, UK
Posts: 4,697
Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
I'm pretty well informed from both parties. I know the Porsche driver repeatedly asked the marshals to red flag it to which their response was no. Race Control admitted afterwards they should of red flagged it as the car was in a place of danger. Think blame is quite easily laid at their feet.
OK, I'm going to break my own rule and comment on one bit of this specific incident then.
The marshals who are in contact with Race Control (the post chiefs) are, at this post, based in the big brick box in the middle of the loop. The Porsche went off on the outside of the circuit.
The marshals on the outside, who the Porsche driver would have been speaking to it, may well have been asked to red flag it. And they may well have said no. On the basis that (1) They have no authority to red flag a session and (2) They probably wouldn't have been able to communicate any request to race control. Any such "no" must be considered in the context that they couldn't.
The information provided to Race Control by "the marshals" would have come from the Post Chief(s) on the inside of the circuit. If anyone other than them or people in race control know what was said (who, of course, will not be commenting on this incident), then I'd like to know how...
Asp is offline  
__________________
DDMC Rescue Crew, Post Chief & Flag Marshal
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:48 (Ref:3395449)   #110
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think an apology from the race director to the 2 cars involved appoints blame to him and his team (marshals, post chiefs etc).

Quote taken from the article.

Benjamin Franassovici British gt championship manager
“There was communication between the local [stewards] and the race director, and it was felt a red flag wasn’t necessary,” states series director Benjamin Franassovici. “Then this has occurred, which is extremely unfortunate. I’m going to see the [officials] now because I’m obviously disappointed with them. It’s unfortunate. I’ve never seen that happen. It’s not a good one, and I’m concerned for the teams. I’m not happy.”
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:50 (Ref:3395450)   #111
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
You've lost me? The marshals were saying it wasn't a red flag... So it wasn't. And now we know that was a bad decision. So the marshals and race control have caused 200k of damage. 4 GT cars in 2 meetings at OP at the corner should be enough to highlight that area of barrier as high risk.
Just because there wasn't a red flag doesn't mean they didn't request one!

2 drivers caused 200k of damage...one spun off, the other chose to push for a faster time in an area where he thought a car was in an unsafe position, you say that the marshals and race control made a bad decision and the blame lies with them, HOW BAD is the decision by an international racing driver to PUSH to get a faster time in a free practice session KNOWINGLY when there is a car that he deems to be in an unsafe position.....that's a BAD DECISION!....blame cannot wholly lie with race control as you and the drivers put it!
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 09:56 (Ref:3395455)   #112
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascarracinguk View Post
Just because there wasn't a red flag doesn't mean they didn't request one!

2 drivers caused 200k of damage...one spun off, the other chose to push for a faster time in an area where he thought a car was in an unsafe position, you say that the marshals and race control made a bad decision and the blame lies with them, HOW BAD is the decision by an international racing driver to PUSH to get a faster time in a free practice session KNOWINGLY when there is a car that he deems to be in an unsafe position.....that's a BAD DECISION!....blame cannot wholly lie with race control as you and the drivers put it!
Earlier you mocked me for quoting what the Porsche driver said. But guess I need to repeat it. He asked the marshals to red flag it as his car was in an unsafe postion they said NO (I can use cap locks too). So that means I do know one wasn't requested.

These aren't international drivers they are a mix of gentleman drivers and pros. Both of these drivers were gentleman. Also with 2 drivers getting in and out of the car during a session if the yellow flag is removed how would the new driver know about the incident. The entry to that corner is over 100mph so a small mistake because a big one quickly.
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 10:04 (Ref:3395460)   #113
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
Earlier you mocked me for quoting what the Porsche driver said. But guess I need to repeat it. He asked the marshals to red flag it as his car was in an unsafe postion they said NO (I can use cap locks too). So that means I do know one wasn't requested.

These aren't international drivers they are a mix of gentleman drivers and pros. Both of these drivers were gentleman. Also with 2 drivers getting in and out of the car during a session if the yellow flag is removed how would the new driver know about the incident. The entry to that corner is over 100mph so a small mistake because a big one quickly.
That's the point, either he's been misquoted or somethin, as ASP said the marshals he would be talking too wouldn't have the authority/be in a position to say yes OR no for a red flag. More likely what happened was that the marshals heard over the scanner that a red flag may or may have been requested and had been declined. Either way the version of events put forward by the article CANNOT have happened...those marshals aren't in a position to say NO to a red flag request
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 10:08 (Ref:3395463)   #114
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ok well when I spoke direct to Jody he said the marshals at the scene of his car said no to when he asked for the Red flag. The clark of the course also said to me direct that no one on circuit asked for a red flag.

Pretty conclusive.

Either Jody is lying, don't think so.
Clark of the course is lying, don't think so
Or no red flag was requested, think so.
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 10:12 (Ref:3395469)   #115
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
Ok well when I spoke direct to Jody he said the marshals at the scene of his car said no to when he asked for the Red flag. The clark of the course also said to me direct that no one on circuit asked for a red flag.

Pretty conclusive.

Either Jody is lying, don't think so.
Clark of the course is lying, don't think so
Or no red flag was requested, think so.
Again the marshals stood with him at the car may have said no but they wouldn't have had the authority to make that decision.

You've avoided one of my points though.....why push for a faster time in a free practice session knowing there's a car there that as a driver you deem to be unsafe? Bad decision? Any blame lying with the drivers or is it wholly the circuits fault?
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 10:20 (Ref:3395474)   #116
Holymoly
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Holymoly should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sorry didn't mean to miss that point. No yellow flag would indicate circuit is clear so why slow down? Drivers is trusting the car is in a safe place. At speed not easy to make the right decision. Hence why we have marshals, race directors etc.
Holymoly is offline  
Quote
Old 20 Apr 2014, 10:40 (Ref:3395482)   #117
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
Sorry didn't mean to miss that point. No yellow flag would indicate circuit is clear so why slow down? Drivers is trusting the car is in a safe place. At speed not easy to make the right decision. Hence why we have marshals, race directors etc.
There was a hazard board indicating there was a car off....my point is in the article the drivers felt that the car was in an unsafe position....so why push so hard in that sector....you can turn it down to 9/10ths.....after all it was only a practice session as both drivers used as argument for why it should have been red flagged. It's very easy to sit on a computer trying to apportion blame after looking at a video. What you don't have is any real idea of the communication between track and race control, any of the thought process behind the decisions and any of the experience of oulton park over the years. The marshals are there week in week out....their and race controls decisions aren't just necessarily based on 1 accident....it's based on years of racing.....there are 20 practice and race sessions a weekend, around 25 meetings a year and decades of experience between them all......statistically that accident is very small.....so at the time maybe it was the right call based on their perception of the car/risks.....hindsight is a wonderful thing but it's not what they have during a session
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 07:54 (Ref:3396083)   #118
Biscuits In A Red Bull
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
United Kingdom
Posts: 2,650
Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Can you just argue somewhere else?

Can't wait for race 1 - the best looking front row in motorsports history. 2 Astons...
Biscuits In A Red Bull is offline  
__________________
"Is this stock car racing or is this motorsport?!" - John Cleland
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 11:09 (Ref:3396154)   #119
Biscuits In A Red Bull
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
United Kingdom
Posts: 2,650
Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Looks like Caine has this won...
Biscuits In A Red Bull is offline  
__________________
"Is this stock car racing or is this motorsport?!" - John Cleland
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 11:17 (Ref:3396159)   #120
Biscuits In A Red Bull
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
United Kingdom
Posts: 2,650
Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Unless there are post race penalties, it is:

1 - Al Harthy/Caine
2 - Lathouras/Lyons
3 - Howard/Adam
4 - Patterson/Bell
5 - Dryburgh/Gaw

GT4:

1 - Wylie/Giddings
2 - Yusuf/Kershaw
3 - Jarman/Modell
Biscuits In A Red Bull is offline  
__________________
"Is this stock car racing or is this motorsport?!" - John Cleland
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 13:29 (Ref:3396209)   #121
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holymoly View Post
Sorry didn't mean to miss that point. No yellow flag would indicate circuit is clear so why slow down? Drivers is trusting the car is in a safe place. At speed not easy to make the right decision. Hence why we have marshals, race directors etc.
Circuit was clear - no people trackside, nothing on or next to the track, no need for yellow flags any more. Hazard board indicates change of condition since the start of the session and suggests that a degree of caution is advisable. The big car at the side of the track is another clue.

Marshals who were with the driver would not have any knowledge of whether a red flag was requested, nor any means - or reason - for requesting one. That request would be made by the Post Chief in the middle of the circuit in consultation with the clerk of course. However, the driver is also not the person who makes the request and yelling at the marshals (I'm guessing that's what 'remonstrating' meant in that article) isn't going to change that.

The article and the comments of the driver and those who know him simply show a basic lack of understanding of flag signals and of the basic communication systems at a race meeting. A day on the bank with the marshals might be a valuable learning experience...

Which is not to comment on whether the decision is good or bad as I simply don't know the details. However, these decisions are always judgement calls and there is no right or wrong until hindsight kicks in. To lay all of the blame on the marshals is wrong as the cause of the second accident is down to the decision making of the guy holding the steering wheel. The result is highly unfortunate, but not predictable. It's a very unusual place for one car to go off, and more so for two.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 15:46 (Ref:3396254)   #122
kurski
Veteran
 
kurski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Finland
Posts: 1,508
kurski should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridkurski should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ecurie Ecosse powered by Black Bull (BMW Z4 GT3) drivers Alexander Sims & Marco Attard won British GT at Oulton Park 2 race, second Phil Keen & Jon Minshaw and third Jonathan Adam & Andrew Howard.
kurski is offline  
__________________
“Fernando Alonso has revealed that he would like to contest the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the world’s oldest and most famous sports car race"
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 19:12 (Ref:3396353)   #123
Simmi
Veteran
 
Simmi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United Kingdom
Posts: 8,993
Simmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameSimmi will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
What a day at Oulton. Weather was glorious. Helped me dry off the remainder of my stuff from Silverstone.

Such a great track for spectators. Really good action. The Bentley's sounded incredible in the flesh. But what a great grid British GT has now.
Simmi is offline  
__________________
For when your year runs from June to June - '11/'12/'13/'14/'15/'16/'17/'18/'19/xx/'21/'22/'23
Instagram: rsmotorsportmedia
Quote
Old 21 Apr 2014, 19:22 (Ref:3396359)   #124
Rodger Davies
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Wales
Bradford, UK
Posts: 3,042
Rodger Davies has a real shot at the podium!Rodger Davies has a real shot at the podium!Rodger Davies has a real shot at the podium!Rodger Davies has a real shot at the podium!Rodger Davies has a real shot at the podium!
Lovely day, stayed dry throughout. The field benefitted hugely from a strong GT4 field and the valance worked really well.

Not sure how the crowd compares, bit was impressive to see how many people there were with British GT leading the bill and no F3 race at all. Wonder how the crowd compared to Silverstone WEC.
Rodger Davies is offline  
__________________
Eat Sportscars
Sleep Sportscars
Drink Gulf
Quote
Old 22 Apr 2014, 12:33 (Ref:3396673)   #125
cg7aa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
London
Posts: 1,272
cg7aa should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger Davies View Post
Lovely day...
It was indeed. Really nice day out for me even if it was a 3hr drive each way. What a nice circuit, I like the surroundings like the wooded area on the approach to Druids. The last time I was there was 2009 for the Gold Cup.

The GT grid looked really nice, I never thought I would be that partial to GT3 machinery. Got some cracking photos too (by my standards!).

I loved watching the historics at Druids.
cg7aa is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2014 British F3 Silly Season Biscuits In A Red Bull National & International Single Seaters 288 19 Mar 2015 22:44
2014 British Formula Ford - What's going on? Biscuits In A Red Bull National & International Single Seaters 4 23 Dec 2013 09:05
British Formula 3 is back (2014) BtccLee National & International Single Seaters 25 25 Nov 2013 18:21
2014 British GP Volunteering Chris Hobson Marshals Forum 38 22 Nov 2013 19:05
2014 International GT Open NaBUru38 Sportscar & GT Racing 10 13 Nov 2013 17:23


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.