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Old 11 Dec 2012, 19:48 (Ref:3177691)   #1126
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Originally Posted by Pandamasque View Post
Maybe he was not sure if he had left his iron on or something.
Probably more worried about American beer to be honest !!!
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Old 11 Dec 2012, 20:12 (Ref:3177709)   #1127
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Originally Posted by lucky snake View Post
do you generalize the whole former f1 question only judging the face of jhonny herbert in a pic?
No, not trying to generalize. Just one driver and one situation. Herbert showed up in sportscars very soon after his F1 departure. The decreased intensity level of 'the circus' seemed to be a shock for him that day. I saw him the next year and he seemed to have adapted well, IMO, and seemed happier with where he had landed.

In the photo, I think this was his first drive in the ALMS just after F1. It's not meant to be a generalized statement nor a put down of anyone or anything. This was one F1 driver who was in the midst of a HUGE transition. Was he thinking back, was he focusing in his mind the track and the car or was he trying to remember if he left the iron on? I don't know.

At the time, I thought it was a somber and serious look. Almost sad. I've seen drivers focus and visualize so know what that looks like.
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Old 11 Dec 2012, 20:19 (Ref:3177715)   #1128
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Originally Posted by The Badger View Post
and most of all have the decency of asking the drivers who drive these machines , what they want .
Seriously why? Very few driver has an engineering degree. Let me guess what they would say in such survey: 1. safe cars (check) 2. fast cars (check).

Drivers could be maybe consulted more on sporting side of things, but technical regs should be left for those who actually design and build them.

Last edited by deggis; 11 Dec 2012 at 20:26.
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Old 11 Dec 2012, 21:32 (Ref:3177754)   #1129
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Are you serious ..... very few decision makers have to take a blind corner at competitive speeds either .

And no ..... your very wrong and have missed the point entirely . Most drivers want more power , more wing and more speed ...... so , thats shuts you up !!!

As has been seen on several occassions , the people who govern the sport dont really have a clue . That little driver , you know the one who never did **** "Guy Smith" wants more power , more wing .... and you peddle your desk around your office disagreeing ..... this is the very reason why I say that the people who drive these things , need to be consulted first and foremost .

Like when they introduced that new pit lane that rejoined the track at the Dunlop bridge ..... obviously no driver was consulted .

Know your job and be good at it ..... otherwise , reaslise you dont and dont stick your oar in when obviously you dont have any sort of an idea at all .
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Old 11 Dec 2012, 21:50 (Ref:3177769)   #1130
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
Seriously why? Very few driver has an engineering degree. Let me guess what they would say in such survey: 1. safe cars (check) 2. fast cars (check).

Drivers could be maybe consulted more on sporting side of things, but technical regs should be left for those who actually design and build them.
What actually makes a top driver is often their engineering skills, and the way they can translate how the car drives into something the engineers can understand.
In my book that makes them excellent consulates for any rule makers .

Kevin Magnussen (Jan's son) recentley tested McLarens 2012 F1 car, his speed was good (Fastest overall) but what impressed McLaren was his ability to talk to the team.
And not to take too much F1 into this, but Kimi Raikkonen has always been bad at talking with the engineers, something which hasn't improved their speed and development.

Sorry, isn't this also getting a bit Off Topic?

Last edited by CTD; 11 Dec 2012 at 21:56.
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Old 11 Dec 2012, 21:54 (Ref:3177772)   #1131
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Are you serious ..... very few decision makers have to take a blind corner at competitive speeds either .

And no ..... your very wrong and have missed the point entirely . Most drivers want more power , more wing and more speed ...... so , thats shuts you up !!!

As has been seen on several occassions , the people who govern the sport dont really have a clue . That little driver , you know the one who never did **** "Guy Smith" wants more power , more wing .... and you peddle your desk around your office disagreeing ..... this is the very reason why I say that the people who drive these things , need to be consulted first and foremost .
One driver commented on a internet forum? Amazingly large sampling and in depth.

You then again could explain how you intend to give them unlimited engines and more downforce while keeping the speeds in control.

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Like when they introduced that new pit lane that rejoined the track at the Dunlop bridge ..... obviously no driver was consulted .
Didn't know pitlanes were part of the car design.
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Old 11 Dec 2012, 22:06 (Ref:3177775)   #1132
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Pitlanes arnt part of car design ..... your a clever little man . Point being , when the decision was made to make this modification , obviously no driver was asked his opinion ..... as we see , this planned pit lane exit didnt make it passed qualifying .

And ..... I point out Guy Smith ..... to name a few ..... Andy Wallace , Jan Lammers , do you want me to continue or do want to start disagreeing with the people who drive these machines ..... naa , maybe its better off if you stick to your decktop simulator .

And , if you for one moment , consider yourself to be of higher opinion than that the people who actually have to plant their arse in the seat of one of these cars ..... you may procede with this crap .

No doubt ..... another warning to follow ..... caution to the wind at this stage .

Oh ..... proper drivers dont give a **** about speeds ..... its their job and they love it . Ask them , I have ..... more to the point , have you ?

Point being , very little consideration is given to the men who have to drive these machines ..... and that is wrong . Theory does not work always ..... and you must know that , or are you about to disagree again ?

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Old 11 Dec 2012, 23:59 (Ref:3177853)   #1133
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Drivers opinions matter when they are writing the cheques, otherwise, not so much.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 00:07 (Ref:3177856)   #1134
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Pitlanes arnt part of car design ..... your a clever little man . Point being , when the decision was made to make this modification , obviously no driver was asked his opinion ..... as we see , this planned pit lane exit didnt make it passed qualifying .
I got it, but subject was (is) technical regs of the cars and more specifically the aero regs.

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And ..... I point out Guy Smith ..... to name a few ..... Andy Wallace , Jan Lammers , do you want me to continue or do want to start disagreeing with the people who drive these machines ..... naa , maybe its better off if you stick to your decktop simulator .
Well, tell their thoughts and more importantly solution(s) to the fin & flying cars issues, for example. If they couldn't give one, then it is probably better to stick to the wind tunnel people behind their computers.

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Oh ..... proper drivers dont give a **** about speeds ..... its their job and they love it . Ask them , I have ..... more to the point , have you ?
What did you ask them then? That would they like faster speeds or that would they like faster speeds that are nearing unsafe levels? Can you ask next time if they would feel comfortable sitting in cars that would be capable of lapping Le Mans under 3 mins?

Because that 3:00 sounds quite doable with your suggestion of unlimited or much less limited engines and much more downforce than what the current cars are producing.

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Point being , very little consideration is given to the men who have to drive these machines ..... and that is wrong . Theory does not work always ..... and you must know that , or are you about to disagree again ?
If disagreeing means repeating my opinion that they shouldn't be asked on things they can't comprehensively understand such as aerodynamics, then yes.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 00:15 (Ref:3177857)   #1135
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Originally Posted by CTD View Post
What actually makes a top driver is often their engineering skills, and the way they can translate how the car drives into something the engineers can understand.
In my book that makes them excellent consulates for any rule makers .
I'm not talking about that sort of "engineering", in other words giving feedback on the track. I'm talking about reading the rule book and designing something fast and driveable.

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And not to take too much F1 into this, but Kimi Raikkonen has always been bad at talking with the engineers, something which hasn't improved their speed and development.
This is more like a myth only based on his appearance infront of tv cameras (http://www.f1zone.net/news/rating-ki...ability/10802/), but more on subject, guess who said this:

No driver in the world can talk to an aerodynamics engineer on an equal footing because they have completely different levels of understanding. All you can do is tell your race engineer what you'd ideally like. Mechanics are important too but they do what the engineers tell them to. So your communication is limited to two or, at most three, people in the team. And then what's made of your input depends on the team.

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Sorry, isn't this also getting a bit Off Topic?
Maybe but it's not like this thread is being flooded with Porsche LMP related news right now.

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Old 12 Dec 2012, 00:37 (Ref:3177863)   #1136
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Drivers opinions matter when they are writing the cheques, otherwise, not so much.
Obviously your not a driver then ..... I absolutly agree that drivers should be given a right to vote on these issues ..... you say , they have that right when they pay for it . Typical TV attitude if you ask me .

Very easy attitude when your not the one whose arse is in the seat .....
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 00:50 (Ref:3177870)   #1137
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
I got it, but subject was (is) technical regs of the cars and more specifically the aero regs.


Well, tell their thoughts and more importantly solution(s) to the fin & flying cars issues, for example. If they couldn't give one, then it is probably better to stick to the wind tunnel people behind their computers.


What did you ask them then? That would they like faster speeds or that would they like faster speeds that are nearing unsafe levels? Can you ask next time if they would feel comfortable sitting in cars that would be capable of lapping Le Mans under 3 mins?

Because that 3:00 sounds quite doable with your suggestion of unlimited or much less limited engines and much more downforce than what the current cars are producing.


If disagreeing means repeating my opinion that they shouldn't be asked on things they can't comprehensively understand such as aerodynamics, then yes.
Remember the 70's Mig Russian jet fighters ..... many carried a vortex generator . To carry a vortex generator of that size ment , they got the aero wrong and made compensation with this device .
Sticking to wind tunnel info , doesnt guarentee results ..... proven many a time . So , the "flying fin" is a solution for getting it wrong in the first place ..... face it , its wrong ..... and this points out to the fact that the currant regs are flawed .

When asked ..... they want more power ..... never a thought about anything else . For example ..... Wallace won LM in a Jag XJR-9 ..... upwards of 245MPH ..... he said he wants more power to me , as did Guy Smith ..... get that then !

And to quote you : If disagreeing means repeating my opinion that they shouldn't be asked on things they can't comprehensively understand such as aerodynamics, then yes .

Answer ..... your obviously management material ....... havent got a ****en clue !!!

Shouldnt be asked ..... how the **** can you say something like that ? You dont sit your pretty arse in a seat like that , so how could you possibily come out with a statement like that ?

Drivers dont understand aero ..... well , theres something you dont understand ..... but if you cant figure that out ..... better stick to logging and cheap furniture !!!
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 01:00 (Ref:3177873)   #1138
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Badger why do you feel the need to get so worked up about this to the point where your borderline unreasonable and most of what youve posted over the last day could be seen as a personal attack. Everyone on here loves the sport and has their own opinions, its not wrong to disagree with someone else, so why do you have to act as if your opinion is the only one that matters.

Anyway, ive taken it off topic, hopefully a mod will be along to sort this properly.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 01:15 (Ref:3177876)   #1139
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Because ..... many people have the thought of ..... it is so , so let it be .

I am fortunate to have seen great Group C battles , I have also been fortunate to see some brilliant designs at Le Mans ..... where I have been 21 times ..... and many here are of the opinion that what we have today is proper sportscars ..... with their diesel engines .

Borderline unreasonable ..... to be correct , I was quoting what several drivers have personally said to me ..... direct that remark in their direction . I dont drive these cars , but they do , so why do you offer that comment that what Im saying is wrong ..... they said it , they drive it , its correct they should be asked their opinion , or do you think they should shut up and do as their told ? ..... More management crap if you ask me . You are management , right ..... or close to it ?

My opinion matters just as much , and no more than the next person ..... but sometimes whats written here gets me confused , frustrated and all the rest .

Like ..... what right do drivers have to offer opinion ..... this is just ignorance , or obviously you tend to have another point to raise ?

Yeah ..... I might be about to get barred ..... to be honest ..... if speaking my mind does that ..... Id be quite proud . I dont follow the mass's ..... I form my own opinion , right or wrong , but we cant be right all of the time , I feel .
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 01:23 (Ref:3177877)   #1140
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Obviously your not a driver then ..... I absolutly agree that drivers should be given a right to vote on these issues ..... you say , they have that right when they pay for it . Typical TV attitude if you ask me .

Very easy attitude when your not the one whose arse is in the seat .....
Are you a driver in an ACO series?

The vote is given to those who pay to run. People like Chris Dyson, Greg Pickett, Scott Tucker, Alexandre Pesci/Bart Hayden, and factory entries. These are the people that matter on these issues. Of course safety and organizers should and do have input as well.

Drivers are paid to drive, and while we all understand that they would prefer bigger challenges, and to go faster, their opinion in the matter is irrelevant.

Going faster costs more money, and at some point more than enough interested paying people will pay. Take a look at P1, there just aren't many people interested in paying what it takes to go that speed currently. It seems that there are plenty of drivers who are happy taking pay cheques to race in LMP2, LMPC, GTE, GTC, Continental Challenge and so on.

Driver's should have a say when there are major safety concerns, such as the F1 Grand Prix Driver's association...

Really, paid drivers are a bit like tires... just another component of a sportscar team that you need to compete.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 01:44 (Ref:3177881)   #1141
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Sticking to wind tunnel info , doesnt guarentee results ..... proven many a time . So , the "flying fin" is a solution for getting it wrong in the first place ..... face it , its wrong ..... and this points out to the fact that the currant regs are flawed .
Lets make it clear that I don't like the fin, but I will defend it as a solution when people just complain about it as if it was there only to annoy and without providing a better solution. "Just get rid of it" is not a solution.

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Answer ..... your obviously management material ....... havent got a ****en clue !!!

Shouldnt be asked ..... how the **** can you say something like that ? You dont sit your pretty arse in a seat like that , so how could you possibily come out with a statement like that ?

Drivers dont understand aero ..... well , theres something you dont understand ..... but if you cant figure that out .....
You must be taking this too literally... For sure any driver knows a bit more than that drag is bad and that downforce is good, but does that make them aerodynamists? No.

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better stick to logging and cheap furniture !!!
...

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Old 12 Dec 2012, 02:24 (Ref:3177884)   #1142
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Lets make it clear that I don't like the fin, but I will defend it as a solution when people just complain about it
LMFAO at this comment !!!

the court is out on if it actually does anything at all ..... I work with aerodynamics , not deeply involved but Im not sure about this at all .

Issue is , its designed for a particular type of accident , but we all know an accident is just that , an accident and you cant prepare for that ..... cuz you dont know how this accident will take place .

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Old 12 Dec 2012, 02:32 (Ref:3177885)   #1143
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Are you a driver in an ACO series?

The vote is given to those who pay to run. People like Chris Dyson, Greg Pickett, Scott Tucker, Alexandre Pesci/Bart Hayden, and factory entries. These are the people that matter on these issues. Of course safety and organizers should and do have input as well.

Drivers are paid to drive, and while we all understand that they would prefer bigger challenges, and to go faster, their opinion in the matter is irrelevant.

Going faster costs more money, and at some point more than enough interested paying people will pay. Take a look at P1, there just aren't many people interested in paying what it takes to go that speed currently. It seems that there are plenty of drivers who are happy taking pay cheques to race in LMP2, LMPC, GTE, GTC, Continental Challenge and so on.

Driver's should have a say when there are major safety concerns, such as the F1 Grand Prix Driver's association...

Really, paid drivers are a bit like tires... just another component of a sportscar team that you need to compete.
No ..... I dont race in any series .

and no again ..... most of the staff on the commities are at factory level ..... not the likes of who you said .

Paid drivers are like tires ..... ..... what an opinion !!!
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 02:35 (Ref:3177886)   #1144
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and no again ..... most of the staff on the commities are at factory level ..... not the likes of who you said .
I didn't say committee, they vote by buying cars, and paying to run. Organizers build rules suited to ensuring there are adequate cars on the grid.

Anyway.. this should be about the Porsche LMP1 car.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 13:43 (Ref:3178016)   #1145
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 13:52 (Ref:3178019)   #1146
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The official press release from last week, on which that German article is based, can be found at http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsand...28be16&lang=en

Also see post #1042 and subsequent discussion.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 15:47 (Ref:3178052)   #1147
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Right ..... appologies for the above comments .

Upon reading back over them , It appears that Ive been a fair bit over the top . If I offended some one , please accept this as an appology .

Ive been a bit up and down the last few months , some nasty stuff going on in my life , but I also understand that this is not the place to vent my issues .

I will endevor to get it right in future .

Again , sorry for my attitude .

Sincerly

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Old 12 Dec 2012, 15:53 (Ref:3178057)   #1148
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 16:46 (Ref:3178069)   #1149
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Right ..... appologies for the above comments .

Upon reading back over them , It appears that Ive been a fair bit over the top . If I offended some one , please accept this as an appology .

Ive been a bit up and down the last few months , some nasty stuff going on in my life , but I also understand that this is not the place to vent my issues .

I will endevor to get it right in future .

Again , sorry for my attitude .

Sincerly

Gerard
Even if anyone felt "offended" somehow by any post by The Badger, an apology like this is more than enough, and, for myself, I really appreciate this post. How I wish everyone (not refering only to this forum, but whole life) did the same.
The very best for you, Gerald, and i hope everything turns much better for you very soon.
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Old 12 Dec 2012, 17:16 (Ref:3178074)   #1150
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The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!The Badger has a real shot at the podium!
Thanks for understanding , but my situation wont improve until at least mid July next year ..... no LM again .
The Badger is offline  
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