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Old 15 Jul 2017, 14:32 (Ref:3751458)   #101
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Liberty said during the London event that there will be a British GP on the calendar after 2019, so there's no doubt they have their best interests lie, we'll just see if it's at Silverstone or London
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 19:14 (Ref:3751515)   #102
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The thing to remember is that is that it's not a renegotiation. THe old contract will end after the 2019 event.

The BRDC can now take a clean sheet approach to what they need to to do, and can offer in terms of negotiations for a new contract.

There was a comment about letting the dust settle and not even starting the process of negotiations until next year. I hope there is something innovative that can be brought to the table that can result in a contract that's workable for both parties.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 08:16 (Ref:3752708)   #103
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The thing to remember is that is that it's not a renegotiation. THe old contract will end after the 2019 event.

The BRDC can now take a clean sheet approach to what they need to to do, and can offer in terms of negotiations for a new contract.

There was a comment about letting the dust settle and not even starting the process of negotiations until next year. I hope there is something innovative that can be brought to the table that can result in a contract that's workable for both parties.
Silverstone puts Liberty in a bit of a dilemma, for what I think are the following reasons...

It is clearly the only circuit capable of hosting an F1 GP in the UK, there is no appetite from MSV or Donington to do this.

By triggering the break clause to stimulate a re-negotiation, this will have pricked up the ears of every other circuit on the calendar that believes it is paying too much or hosting the race is unsustainable.

Silverstone can point to the fact that even with a sell out event and with ticket prices on the limit of what spectators will pay, the race is still costing them around £5m in losses - and growing with the escalator.

So, you are Liberty - what do you do?

Cut the hosting fee and set a dangerous precedent for others?

Keep the fee the same and give back some of the rights at the GP for Silverstone to sell and keep the income - this is risky as it assumes that Silverstone has the capability or can hire in the capability to sell around £6m of rights per annum (including costs of delivery/fees, etc) and increasing this each year to keep in line with the race fee escalator.

Call their bluff and decide on a clean break with the BRDC and Silverstone and go for London - maybe the Docklands idea - which will arguably get a much better reception post Brexit when the UK wants to show the world it is open for business. This also meets Liberty's own brief of focusing on destination cities where they can engage the whole city in events around the GP, get fans to and from the event with integrated public transport and host the event where the people already are.

As for Silverstone, assuming the GP moves to London, they lose the gloss of the GP but also the burden of it and can just revert to being a circuit owner/operator and they should develop other events owned and created by Silverstone, no doubt falling back on their heritage via the new heritage centre they are developing.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 11:13 (Ref:3752761)   #104
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This week from Carey, who appears, certainly from these comments, to have the same blinkers on, possibly borrowed from Mr E:

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Indeed, talking to The Times, Carey admits that he is puzzled by the organisers claims of financial hardship under the current deal.

"I don't understand some of their claims about their economics," he said, "particularly when I look at our business in other places. The people who run a good race seem to have a different picture than they are painting.

"But I don't have visibility to how they account, how they assign costs," he admitted. "I know we are not treating them unfairly. We are treating them consistently with others. We value Silverstone and we have three years to reach an agreement.

"Our preference is for Silverstone but the British Grand Prix certainly does not have to be here," he warned. "We have had expressions of interest from other places in the UK, but I'm not trying to play one against the other."

From: https://www.pitpass.com/59693/BRDC-r...Media-proposal

Not trying to play one place against another? Certainly sounds like it.

The only countries that seem content to carry on with their GPs seem to be those run by despots who have no compunction about wasting their country's wealth on vanity projects - Monaco excepted. The UK is almost alone in having no state assistance, and I cannot see that changing in the foreseeable future, either. And certainly not whilst public sector employees pay is being severely curtailed.

And as an American, maybe he should look to his own country. COA has it's own financial problems, and is only kept afloat, or so I believe, by receiving State assistance. And why is there no New Jersey race? Because they couldn't get State aid to build the circuit, and/or a State financial guarantee to underwrite the contract.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 11:35 (Ref:3752767)   #105
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Agree with everything you say Moneyseeker, an F1 race meeting has to be a greater event than just the race if it is to attract enough spectators. In this day and age one sees more of the race on TV than at the circuit where only a few hundred yards are ever in view. For me F! Is interesting rather than exciting, I only attend the British and even then watch mainly on a TV screen.
As a circuit Silverstone is fantastic, fast, complex, a real test of car and driver but for viewing not a patch on Brands Indie!
So I fear we shall lose the spectacle of those fast sweeps taken by an F1 car, lose the essence of F1 that is really pricing itself out of market.. A race round the docklands can never be the same but would probably win on accessibility
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 19:33 (Ref:3752871)   #106
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Unless race promoters and Liberty have the same financial stake in any GP, why would Liberty care whether the event runs at a loss or not?

If nobody turns up to watch a GP, what financial hardship to Liberty suffer?
Apart from the tens of millions they receive from race promoters, their real income comes from selling the TV rights and developing the same through other platforms.

It's been obvious to me for years,that Despicable BE,and now Liberty, aren't really bothered about the number of real spectators who physically attend over a race weekend.That's the promoters concern, not theirs, they get paid regardless. The only thing that will scare Liberty is if TV audiences drop through the floor.

The "fair" way forward is for both the race promoter and Commercial Rights Holder (Liberty), to share a common interest in the financial success of each other.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 20:07 (Ref:3752879)   #107
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Unless race promoters and Liberty have the same financial stake in any GP, why would Liberty care whether the event runs at a loss or not?

If nobody turns up to watch a GP, what financial hardship to Liberty suffer?
Apart from the tens of millions they receive from race promoters, their real income comes from selling the TV rights and developing the same through other platforms.

It's been obvious to me for years,that Despicable BE,and now Liberty, aren't really bothered about the number of real spectators who physically attend over a race weekend.That's the promoters concern, not theirs, they get paid regardless. The only thing that will scare Liberty is if TV audiences drop through the floor.

The "fair" way forward is for both the race promoter and Commercial Rights Holder (Liberty), to share a common interest in the financial success of each other.
Any intelligent person would like to think that the above is so, yet the actions of both BCE and now Liberty seem to disprove it.

Their model appears to be that although they claim that high TV audience figures are paramount, however their actual policies belie that. Germany has already, or is just about to, put all F1 behind a paywall and the audience numbers have already decreased. Meanwhile, in the UK, all live F1 will be behind a paywall after the end of next season. And that despite the fact that the UK's TV audience is the largest in the world, but that has reduced by 25% in the last couple of years since the BBC handed the broadcasting rights back.

Whilst Sky is prepared to pay astronomical broadcasting rights fees, then Liberty, or whoever, don't care if only one man and his dog are watching. And furthermore, now that Sky have introduced the possibility that their subscribers can purchase just the F1 channel to add to their TV package for £18 ($25) per month (rather than the complete Sports Bundle for about £28 per month - just reduced)), it is interesting that Virgin Media in the UK, part of the same corporate group as Liberty, still insist that their customers take the whole Sky Sports bundle for an additional £31.50 per month.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 21:19 (Ref:3752894)   #108
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I'm of the view the exclusive TV deal with Sky will be the undoing of F1. Once it goes behind a pay wall, viewers will inevitably be lost.Sure, some die hard fans will be prepared to shell-out, but the casual follower,of which there are millions,won't be so keen.

It isn't a sport that holds the same degree of passion,obsession,loyalty,fanaticism etc,etc that say football does.

Millions can live with out it and probably will.
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 22:16 (Ref:3752906)   #109
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it really is crazy what you guys have to pay in order to get behind the paywall...over here its roughly CAN$14-25/mos for about 20 specialty paywall sports channels...and we think that is expensive.

for sure FOM has been, along with other sports leagues, proponents of this increase over time but surely there has got to be something else going on over there which allows your telecoms to get away with charging such high prices?
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Old 19 Jul 2017, 22:58 (Ref:3752911)   #110
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Chilli, it is perverse, isn't it? One would expect that competition would drive down prices, but the reverse seems to now hold true when it comes to sports behind paywalls in the UK.

That very competition between the TV broadcasters is actually driving up the costs of the broadcasting rights, with possibly three or four different broadcasters vying with each other for the plum sports. And very often leaving the very best broadcaster (usually the very best) in their wake because they cannot justify the obscene money (which would be taxpayers' money) that the broadcasters like Sky will pay for sports' rights.

And all that means is that it is the viewer that ends up paying through the nose to follow their passion, whether that be soccer, F1 or boxing and so on. In a perverse way, the viewers are actually partially subsidising the companies so that they can pay huge amounts to buy the rights.

But that may be coming to an end, and that is why I think that Sky have decided to split their sports package into individual segments. Because they are not getting the take up that they were expecting on sports such as F1.

Maybe if they all stopped paying silly money to buy the rights, they could reduce the viewing costs and get back the lost viewers. But I think that the damage has already been done, and in the end it will be all of F1 - FOM, the FIA, the teams and all their staff - that will pay the ultimate price for their greed. The public will only be taken for suckers for a limited time.

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Old 19 Jul 2017, 23:35 (Ref:3752916)   #111
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Any intelligent person would like to think that the above is so, yet the actions of both BCE and now Liberty seem to disprove it.

Their model appears to be that although they claim that high TV audience figures are paramount, however their actual policies belie that. Germany has already, or is just about to, put all F1 behind a paywall and the audience numbers have already decreased. Meanwhile, in the UK, all live F1 will be behind a paywall after the end of next season. And that despite the fact that the UK's TV audience is the largest in the world, but that has reduced by 25% in the last couple of years since the BBC handed the broadcasting rights back.

Whilst Sky is prepared to pay astronomical broadcasting rights fees, then Liberty, or whoever, don't care if only one man and his dog are watching. And furthermore, now that Sky have introduced the possibility that their subscribers can purchase just the F1 channel to add to their TV package for £18 ($25) per month (rather than the complete Sports Bundle for about £28 per month - just reduced)), it is interesting that Virgin Media in the UK, part of the same corporate group as Liberty, still insist that their customers take the whole Sky Sports bundle for an additional £31.50 per month.
What we have to remember here is that Liberty are dealing with Bernie's legacy of deals that lined his wallet and didn't give a damn about anyone else. Just like the Silverstone circuit situation these TV deals were done before pre-Liberty.

As far as I'm aware there is no clause in the TV deals to allow Liberty renegotiate the future contract before it starts.

Even if there was, it would likely cost Liberty more in terms of paying Sky back than they would achieve in selling a package to a FTA channel.

As an aside I suspect that the way Sky wholesales it's sports channels to other platforms will have to change. Given they have just enacted the changes themselves it may take a few months for the other platforms to fully sort out new packages and pricing.
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 00:57 (Ref:3752933)   #112
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Unless race promoters and Liberty have the same financial stake in any GP, why would Liberty care whether the event runs at a loss or not?

If nobody turns up to watch a GP, what financial hardship to Liberty suffer?
Apart from the tens of millions they receive from race promoters, their real income comes from selling the TV rights and developing the same through other platforms.

It's been obvious to me for years,that Despicable BE,and now Liberty, aren't really bothered about the number of real spectators who physically attend over a race weekend.That's the promoters concern, not theirs, they get paid regardless. The only thing that will scare Liberty is if TV audiences drop through the floor.

The "fair" way forward is for both the race promoter and Commercial Rights Holder (Liberty), to share a common interest in the financial success of each other.
Liberty will eventually suffer if TV audiences drop through the floor. Advertisers won't want to pay the TV broadcasters, if no one is watching, no matter how good the racing is. This has been a long running problem with IndyCar for years. It would also be very short sighted of Liberty not to care if events run at a loss because no one shows up. It's the track owners and the race promoters that initially suffer and this is another problem that's plagued IndyCar for years. Again advertisers won't want to pay TV broadcasters to show a load of empty stands. Races tracks have come and gone from the calendar.

In 2015 the series lost one of its most iconic races, the Milwaukee Mile. Admitedly though, it has got back two equally iconic tracks in Road America and Watkins Glen. Spectator attendance and TV audiences are up but IndyCar is not out of the woods yet by any means.

I hoped when Liberty took over, they would bring a different mindset and they have said how Europe is key to the future of F1 but I suppose the problem is, Liberty have inherited the deals Bernie made and in there lies the rub.
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 09:16 (Ref:3753013)   #113
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Interesting piece by Dieter Rencken on Autosport suggests a way forward. It is, of course, behind the Autosport pay wall
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 09:26 (Ref:3753016)   #114
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Interesting piece by Dieter Rencken on Autosport suggests a way forward. It is, of course, behind the Autosport pay wall
I started a thread about a couple of years ago on the Autosport forum about their paywall policy. But unfortunately the then management couldn't see the irony of their putting an article behind their own paywall that was critical of FOM for allowing F1 TV to be put behind a paywall.

Funny old world!
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 09:39 (Ref:3753021)   #115
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I started a thread about a couple of years ago on the Autosport forum about their paywall policy. But unfortunately the then management couldn't see the irony of their putting an article behind their own paywall that was critical of FOM for allowing F1 TV to be put behind a paywall.

Funny old world!
I'd pay to read posts like this (just not very much!)
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 10:05 (Ref:3753030)   #116
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What Despicable BE didn't care about, and Liberty have yet to realize, is that the classic circuits, mostly in Europe, are of huge value to the total F1 experience.

Names like Spa,Monza,Silverstone,Zandvoort, Nurburgring etc,etc are just as iconic as Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren, Lotus, etc, etc, or Hill, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher etc.

These tracks should be given equal status within the complete F1 package......not screwed into financial oblivion by greedy individuals or corporate bullies.
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 11:06 (Ref:3753043)   #117
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I'd pay to read posts like this (just not very much!)
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 11:18 (Ref:3753050)   #118
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Unless race promoters and Liberty have the same financial stake in any GP, why would Liberty care whether the event runs at a loss or not?
Huh!?

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Old 20 Jul 2017, 11:40 (Ref:3753061)   #119
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Yesterday 12:33 [PDT]
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Unless race promoters and Liberty have the same financial stake in any GP, why would Liberty care whether the event runs at a loss or not?

If nobody turns up to watch a GP, what financial hardship to Liberty suffer?
Apart from the tens of millions they receive from race promoters, their real income comes from selling the TV rights and developing the same through other platforms.

It's been obvious to me for years,that Despicable BE,and now Liberty, aren't really bothered about the number of real spectators who physically attend over a race weekend.That's the promoters concern, not theirs, they get paid regardless. The only thing that will scare Liberty is if TV audiences drop through the floor.

The "fair" way forward is for both the race promoter and Commercial Rights Holder (Liberty), to share a common interest in the financial success of each other.
Today 03:05 [PDT]
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What Despicable BE didn't care about, and Liberty have yet to realize, is that the classic circuits, mostly in Europe, are of huge value to the total F1 experience.

Names like Spa,Monza,Silverstone,Zandvoort, Nurburgring etc,etc are just as iconic as Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren, Lotus, etc, etc, or Hill, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher etc.

These tracks should be given equal status within the complete F1 package......not screwed into financial oblivion by greedy individuals or corporate bullies.
Ah, forgive me Littleman, just got myself caught up now.

As you were.
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Old 20 Jul 2017, 13:27 (Ref:3753097)   #120
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There are already worries from some sponsors about audience levels for F1 dropping in major economies like Britain and Germany. I can't see how ditching popular venues and paywalls is going to be very popular with teams.

Despite what some say, 'Grand Prix of the Middle of Nowhere' don't bring in viewers like the classic events. And the more grand prix there are, the more choosy the casual viewer will become.

The assumption is that fans have nowhere else to go, but I can't see major venues taking this lying down - they can't afford to do so. Silverstone is already building a World Rallycross track. It wouldn't be a major stretch of the imagination to see major non-F1 European tracks backing something like a NASCAR series, particularly with plenty of famous ex-champions on the market (Loeb, Button, Solberg etc).
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Old 21 Jul 2017, 08:20 (Ref:3753261)   #121
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Also worth adding that IMO Liberty have a much smaller window to make big money out of F1, undoubtedly BE and CVC have had the best paydays out of it. When Liberty bought F1 they remarked that the purchase price was pretty much covered in the forward contracts that FOM had with promoters, TV and sponsors. When they come up for renewal I would suggest that from then on it will be a diminishing return, hence Liberty's desire to explore what they see as untapped revenue streams.

When you consider that in 30-40 years time, there will be no internal combustion engine powered road cars and many major cities and even countries will have banned such cars from the road altogether. Race circuits will probably be obselete as they are now, with many built on as pressure for housing increases (particularly in the UK) and the trackday, corporate day, club racing bread and butter market for tracks is over.

Young people in the era will probably not bother to learn to drive, cities will have driverless cars and transport.

Electric car technology will be here and now, manufacturers will not need to 'showcase' to show the benefits of it.

F1 might become FE1 with the futuristic cars that we have seen some of the F1 teams show us renderings of, but I doubt it will ever big as big as it even is now and today it faces falling audiences and in many countries spectators.

Liberty probably has 20 years to maximise it's investment against a backdrop of contract renewals from TV and promoters, many of whom will demand a cheaper deal or walk away. It may well face having to be the promoter of F1 races at many circuits, with the tracks reverting to landlord for the weekend.
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Old 21 Jul 2017, 08:59 (Ref:3753270)   #122
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You do paint an encouraging picture Moneyseeker
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Old 21 Jul 2017, 14:23 (Ref:3753345)   #123
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Slightly off-topic, but thinking of future calendars, how many F1-eligible circuits are there that don't currently host a Grand Prix?
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Old 21 Jul 2017, 15:17 (Ref:3753353)   #124
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Slightly off-topic, but thinking of future calendars, how many F1-eligible circuits are there that don't currently host a Grand Prix?
Instanbul
Buddh Int - India
Nurburgring - Germany
Imola?
Kyalami I believe is has been developed and is close to F1 standard - and is now owned by Porsche SA

Anyone else car to chip in?!
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Old 21 Jul 2017, 15:44 (Ref:3753366)   #125
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Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan View Post
Slightly off-topic, but thinking of future calendars, how many F1-eligible circuits are there that don't currently host a Grand Prix?
Countries without a race but with FIA Grade 1 circuits (as of Sep 2016):
Buriram, Thailand
Korea
Istanbul Park, Turkey
Buddh, India
Qatar

Grade 2 circuits that might work with improvements:
Kyalami, South Africa
Rio Hondo, Argentina
Algarve, Portugal
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