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Old 6 Aug 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3757738)   #76
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This thread is fully off topic, but I will roll with it.

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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The FIA allowed the engineers to spend a lot of time engineering the "Schumacher" factor out of F1 by reducing the front end grip of the cars so they become understeer limited and less "prone" to driver input.

The rules now set axle weights to ensure the same basic handling fault.
If a driver enters a corner over the limit, the car will basically just plough off speed and the driver can collect it up again and try to get it right. This is how the cars are dumbed down. If everything is on the limit it all tends to let go at the same time and tear up the scenery, no recovery.
It's unfortunate that the weight balance is so strictly controlled. But doubt it has anything to do with engineering out specific driving styles. I am sure cars can be setup to be "loose" at the rear and very "pointy" on the front end if so wished. I suspect we see more under steer conditions on track these days due to the front loosing aero grip while trying to follow another car closely. I suspect the tight regulations is all about predictability for the design of the spec tires. If you know the total weight and balance within a handful of kilograms, then it makes it easier to engineer the tire.

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Currently they are basically nursing the front of the car around the corner, and conserving fuel and tyres, hence your race lap times are about 5 seconds or more off the pole time, essentially just touring around within the prescribed parameters.
That I can agree with. It is a sad situation from that perspective.

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As far as the simulators being advanced play station, I would love to see the driver who learned the old Nurburgring on a simulator post a top time, the modern tracks have had all the bumps, camber changes and surface changes taken out of them, "dumbed down" so that there are less variables to put into the simulator!
I am not sure how smoother tracks fit into the conversation about simulators. Other than it makes it easier to simulate. The tracks gravitate toward smooth surfaces regardless of simulation technology. Granted, it does make it easier to drive on if they are that smooth.

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P.S. I do agree driving one of these cars to the possibilities of its performance with limited testing and only "PlayStation" time must be very challenging and difficult. I have no idea what it must feel like trusting a simulator limit on a track is like when you haven't felt what the actual car does on a particular circuit/corner.
It would be interesting to have more visibility into questions like that. I suspect that part of this is that it likely allows a particular skill set to bubble to the top. Those we have existing experience in lower formulas, but who are also able to perform well in the simulators. If they are able to do both well, and the simulators are as accurate as they can be, then maybe that is part of the explanation of relatively smooth transitions into F1 for the "simulator generation". Others might potentially do well in F1, but don't do well in the simulator and just never make it to F1?

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Agreed although I'd still like to see it. My point is ( I may continue flogging this dead horse) that there is just not enough difference between the various formulae thus a rookie can be on the pace immediately. And that IMHO is plain wrong.
I am also flogging a dead horse here in that I think you are really missing a large fact. They are not just "on the pace immediately". What they ARE is turning lap times that are close enough to those at the front that decades ago would have fit the definition of "on the pace". Today, "on the pace" is a much smaller window.

(Note, I say this without having crunched the numbers. It would be interesting to see some true statistical analysis. My argument supposes that the bell curve that will define the general range of performance for a set of drivers will be much narrower than it has been in the past. That the time delta, or better said, the percentage off the best time between the best and the average is decreasing over time. Or for the math geeks, I suspect the standard deviation is trending smaller.)

Anyhow... Ultimately only one can be the winner. And we are not seeing a slew of rookies winning races. Or if someone is young and does stand out (i.e. Max), it is likely that person actually has exceptional skill. Granted, in F1 the entire package matters (chassis, engine, crew, etc.) and that is a big factor in this current turbo era. But in identical cars you are going to see an even distribution of results between experienced and rookie drivers? Take Mercedes for example. Drop the average young rookie into that car and do you think Hamilton is going to win 50% of the time? Absolutely not. It's highly likely Hamilton would crush that rookie teammate over the course of a season. The same goes for a handful of other top level drivers. To me this is a fact. And give this fact... these rookies can't be "on the pace". But if your definition of "on the pace" means that they are somewhere close, but not fighting for wins, then yes they are on the pace.

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Last edited by Richard C; 6 Aug 2017 at 17:29.
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Old 6 Aug 2017, 17:38 (Ref:3757741)   #77
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Arguably the gap between F2 and F1 is larger than it has been in a LONG time due to the massive power difference. About 400hp difference, and a completely different type of power delivery. There have been times (in the glorious 60s for example), than the gap between F2 and F1 was smaller, but nobody would dare use that as a reason to say it was too easy.
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 10:02 (Ref:3757957)   #78
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For the past few seasons the GP2 champion has either missed out on F1 or had to spend a season on the sidelines before coming to F1 a la Palmer and Vandoorne. So there is definitely something not right there, hopefully F2 will fix it soon
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 14:39 (Ref:3757984)   #79
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Here's a possibly mad idea that's just occurred to me: the WCC is contractually obliged to run a third car for the reigning F2 champion.
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Old 7 Aug 2017, 16:01 (Ref:3757998)   #80
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Here's a possibly mad idea that's just occurred to me: the WCC is contractually obliged to run a third car for the reigning F2 champion.
First thing that comes to mind is... who funds it? And if you say the teams, why would they agree to do that. Second is could it score points. If not, would that car be used to disrupt other drivers, etc.

How about third cars for Saturday race (after qualifying, but not a full GP distance, no required pit stops to change tires). One car per team, restrictions on drivers (i.e. no drivers with substantial F1 experience). Drivers may have something similar to a superlicense, but with slightly relaxed experience requirements (to help facilitate new drivers who don't have the required mileage). Separate championship for this Saturday series (i.e. this does not impact regular F1 series). For struggling teams, they may fill the grid with pay drivers (ala Stroll), while top tier teams can use this to test out those who are making it more on talent than budget. Find some way to bring in guest drivers from other series for the entertainment factor. Potential less restrictions on power unit allocations (allow development engines).

I just made that up on the fly. It may be full of holes. Clearly it adds cost which is the biggest issue.

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Old 10 Aug 2017, 00:34 (Ref:3758510)   #81
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For the past few seasons the GP2 champion has either missed out on F1 or had to spend a season on the sidelines before coming to F1 a la Palmer and Vandoorne. So there is definitely something not right there, hopefully F2 will fix it soon
It is not F1's job to look after the careers of junior racing drivers is it?
Morally/economically it might be, but mandating an automatic progression doesn't seem logical.
A prize might be a full house test in a current F1 car somewhere, to get a flavour for the pilot... a race seat has far more financial implications than that.
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Old 10 Aug 2017, 01:10 (Ref:3758513)   #82
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It is not F1's job to look after the careers of junior racing drivers is it?
Morally/economically it might be, but mandating an automatic progression doesn't seem logical.
A prize might be a full house test in a current F1 car somewhere, to get a flavour for the pilot... a race seat has far more financial implications than that.
Think that's a better solution, although determining how you work out where the champ tests is tough as most have their backers. You couldn't have a rotation of teams since what happens if a MB driver is champ but Ferrari is the team? And the chance of successive champs being from the same team is probably slim. But FOM offering the cash and importantly extra slot for that driver to test regardless of team could be a plus for evaluation and building interest in more than just their top series.
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Old 10 Aug 2017, 01:13 (Ref:3758514)   #83
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Think that's a better solution, although determining how you work out where the champ tests is tough as most have their backers. You couldn't have a rotation of teams since what happens if a MB driver is champ but Ferrari is the team? And the chance of successive champs being from the same team is probably slim. But FOM offering the cash and importantly extra slot for that driver to test regardless of team could be a plus for evaluation and building interest in more than just their top series.
The team that gets to test the pilot can run an all-white car...
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Old 10 Aug 2017, 11:31 (Ref:3758592)   #84
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The team that gets to test the pilot can run an all-white car...
But would Ferrari want an MB/RB driver learning from the inside how the car works? It's not as much the cash backing as the inside knowledge of the current car. I know the teams can pretty much get a majority of the information from trackside observation, but those little details and how things work could be useful, with the right driver of course.
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Old 10 Aug 2017, 11:56 (Ref:3758603)   #85
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It is not F1's job to look after the careers of junior racing drivers is it?
Morally/economically it might be, but mandating an automatic progression doesn't seem logical.
A prize might be a full house test in a current F1 car somewhere, to get a flavour for the pilot... a race seat has far more financial implications than that.
I never said F1 should, just that F2 should hopefully fix the problem of the champions being left on the sidelines the season after winning the title
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Old 12 Aug 2017, 13:54 (Ref:3758982)   #86
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I hope Leclerc gets a race seat next year so that Formula 2 gets off to a good start. Palmer, Vandoorne and Gasly all having to go elsewhere was not a good pattern for the FIA's official feeder series.
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 06:20 (Ref:3759101)   #87
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Be surprised if they pay 8m to replace a driver who brings sponsorship.

With Sainz you'd get an OK driver, who is nowhere near as good as only he and his Dad think, who has a petulant attitude - and you'd get the Dad too.

But then again Abiteboul has a serious habit of making stupid decisions
Or they could get Verstappen, who in your words is an ok driver. He hasn't put the wins on like everyone said he would. Give it time, Sainz has a load of potential. And where do you get this theory that Carlos' father is mouthing off, I've never heard a thing from him. I hear a lot from Jos
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 08:11 (Ref:3759114)   #88
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Or they could get Verstappen, who in your words is an ok driver. He hasn't put the wins on like everyone said he would. Give it time, Sainz has a load of potential. And where do you get this theory that Carlos' father is mouthing off, I've never heard a thing from him. I hear a lot from Jos
Lol, from in the paddock.

(And comparing MV with CS really cannot be serious comment)
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 09:27 (Ref:3759119)   #89
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Lol, from in the paddock.

(And comparing MV with CS really cannot be serious comment)
Comparing two talented drivers with two poor performing cars cant be a serious comparison. I have heard not a note from Carlos Snr. either
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 10:18 (Ref:3759124)   #90
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How many thousand miles is your armchair from the paddock?
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 12:59 (Ref:3759152)   #91
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How many thousand miles is your armchair from the paddock?
Jow many is your's. I don't have any involvement with F1, only V8s. But I can see that Carlos has the talent, and never hear from his father, end of story, not worth wasting my time
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 14:12 (Ref:3759163)   #92
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Lol, if you were there you might here it. Sure, he has talent. But he's no future star.
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 17:15 (Ref:3759185)   #93
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I'm having flashbacks to the Sportscar forum! I love when people try and dismiss others opinions by being an insider.

For the record, my armchair is 419.5 miles from the paddock. But this varies if we use any paddock that isn't Silverstone, or change the route.
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 18:59 (Ref:3759198)   #94
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This thread is fully off topic, but I will roll with it.
Okay! For the record, my armchair is...

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Old 13 Aug 2017, 19:48 (Ref:3759199)   #95
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I'm having flashbacks to the Sportscar forum! I love when people try and dismiss others opinions by being an insider.

For the record, my armchair is 419.5 miles from the paddock. But this varies if we use any paddock that isn't Silverstone, or change the route.
Welcome to 2017 Most-Inside-Insider Games, now at our new home in the F1 Forum!
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 20:51 (Ref:3759206)   #96
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Moderator Note

Lets keep this on the topic, 99% of the members of the F1 section are spectators with no insider knowledge, in these forums feel free to speculate. But if you are one of the 1% that is actually involved in F1 with "insider knowledge" then you have 2 options

1. Sit quietly at your keyboard laughing at the speculation,

2. Rebuff the suggestion posting correct information with a usable source.

"I was there I know" type comments when stated from behind an alias just winds other members up.

Please continue on topic.
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Old 13 Aug 2017, 21:52 (Ref:3759219)   #97
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Moderator Note

Lets keep this on the topic, 99% of the members of the F1 section are spectators with no insider knowledge, in these forums feel free to speculate. But if you are one of the 1% that is actually involved in F1 with "insider knowledge" then you have 2 options

1. Sit quietly at your keyboard laughing at the speculation,

2. Rebuff the suggestion posting correct information with a usable source.

"I was there I know" type comments when stated from behind an alias just winds other members up.

Please continue on topic.
Nice!! 😁
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 05:39 (Ref:3759249)   #98
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I'm having flashbacks to the Sportscar forum! I love when people try and dismiss others opinions by being an insider.

For the record, my armchair is 419.5 miles from the paddock. But this varies if we use any paddock that isn't Silverstone, or change the route.
However far away Australia is to Austria is mine. I myself have more inside involvement in V8 Supercars
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 12:05 (Ref:3759320)   #99
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Moderator Note

Lets keep this on the topic, 99% of the members of the F1 section are spectators with no insider knowledge, in these forums feel free to speculate. But if you are one of the 1% that is actually involved in F1 with "insider knowledge" then you have 2 options

1. Sit quietly at your keyboard laughing at the speculation,

2. Rebuff the suggestion posting correct information with a usable source.

"I was there I know" type comments when stated from behind an alias just winds other members up.

Please continue on topic.
Thank you.

Richard
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 19:44 (Ref:3759405)   #100
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Yeah Richard and the group, if I was complicit, my bad. Moving on,

Carlos Sainz et Renault!
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