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Old 9 May 2003, 15:50 (Ref:594701)   #76
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The fans have more power then you think.
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Old 10 May 2003, 02:32 (Ref:595066)   #77
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Yes...although I believe that an IRl-CART merger is not likely, I am going to set up an online petition, and post it around the net, and see just how many signatures it gets...I really wouldn't be surprised if it's well into the 1000's...
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Old 10 May 2003, 17:36 (Ref:595507)   #78
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Y'know, just because I like talking about these things... What would you IRL guys want to see as far as a technical package?
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Old 10 May 2003, 19:56 (Ref:595643)   #79
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The Acceptable CART-IRL Merger Proposal

The concept of a complete CART-IRL merger into just one series into the other is almost unworkable at this point. You have to put into account the venues that host CART and IRL races, and that at least a dozen would have to be dropped to accomodate a single-series schedule, which would sent the new series into a legal quagmire that it would likely be unable to sustain.

Even more so, I enjoyed the way things were in 1996-99, where there was a distinct division in the missions of each series. However, since Chip Ganassi crossed over and dominated the 2000 Indy 500, the IRL has become a big-bucks series dominated by foriegn influence, since the sponsors of the rest of the CART field then demanded their teams to run at Indy, which led to the mass exodus to the IRL in the past few years. At this point, there is no reason that the two series should be separate, because neither are strong enough to go into direct competition without eliminating both in the process.

Therefore, I have concocted a proposal to unite the two series somewhat. Both series would still run different schedules and give out separate championships, but the regulations of the two series would be identical, and a higher combined championship would be handed out to an overall Indy Car champion for the year. These are the main outlines of the merger.

1. Changes in Schedules
The schedules of the two series should be altered to return to the original distinct missions of the rival series. CART would consist of fifteen road and street courses around the world, reflecting its status as a series with an international flavor. The IRL would become an all-oval, all-American series with a schedule of fifteen oval races, all of them in the United States with an exception of the ovals at Motegi and Lausitz. The Indianapolis 500 would be sanctioned by both series.

2. Extended Championship
The CART and IRL championships would only be a piece of the puzzle. In addition to the two, there would be a larger overall championship that uses the combined series results of both series. To be eligible for the overall championship, a team must participate in at least five events in each series, not including the Indy 500. The best 19 results of a team would be counted toward the overall championship. The next two points will explain how this will be workable.

3. Identical Technical Regulations
Engine and chassis specs will be identical for both series. Compromises would have to be made by both sides to set these regulations, because a CART car would likely be qualifying around 230 mph at Indianapolis, and an IRL road course setup would be a true pain in certain posterior areas of the anatomy.

4. A Superior Sanctioning Body
For all of this to work, of course, a higher governing body must be formed to enforce the rules, hand out the championship, and keep one series from beating up on the other. To do that, one of three things should happen.
A. Found an new organisation, some sort of Indycar Federation (hey, that's not a bad name) set up by a group of people impartial to either series,
B. Hand the powers back to USAC, or
C. Make Indycar racing a direct property of the FIA, with the combined title being accredited World Championship status, thus avoiding any dopey title sponsor scenario.

5. Sort Out the Feeder System
A main problem with open-wheel racing in America is that Indycar racing has alienated sprint and midget cars over the past 20 years. Much of this dilemma was caused by the schism of USAC and CART in 1979. To create an equalibrium in the development of future racers between those brought up in the sprint/midget ranks and those who grew up karting is essential. Somehow, young oval-track drivers have to be welcomed into a minor-league setting, and not be discriminated against in favor of kart drivers. Sprints and midgets have really suffered in recent years, so their inclusion into the CART-IRL feeder system is needed to put interest back into that side of racing.

Last edited by Fish_Flake; 10 May 2003 at 20:01.
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Old 10 May 2003, 21:00 (Ref:595675)   #80
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A lot of good points there, Fish.

As far as the contracts, though... The formation of an Indycar Federation (good name!) would actually be made quite simple if both series declared bankruptcy. And let's face it, if Tony George didn't support the IRL, they would be... And CART's cash reserves won't hold out for long. Then the new Indycar Federation can pick up the best assets and contracts in bankrupcy court.

The biggest cultural sticking points I can see are 1. the schism between the big leagues and the traditional open-wheel series, like WoO and USAC, and 2. the snobbish Euro-centric attitude of many CART fans, an ugly side to the series that I've only started to recognize since we start this thread... And I'm glad I did. Too many people have gotten Champcars completely confused with a zero-oval international series... Which it most definitely is not, nor was it ever, nor could it survive as! There are already many series filling that niche (F1, F3000 (soon to be F2 again, yippee!), the Superfund World Series, and to a lesser extend, many others.

As for that sprint/midget-IRL schism... I think that goes to two things... The aforementioned Eurosnob mentality, and secondly, a lack of sponsorship for American drivers. And the only way to bring back those sponsors _is_ to get the two series back together! Looking at Tony Stewart in particular, the jump in terms of driving style isn't that huge... You've got to be fast in one to be fast in the other!

With the technical package... The one thing I absolutely have to emphasize is VALUE! Value honestly has to be the keyword of the whole series... The economic boom of the '90s will not come back in _such_ force for many decades... And with NASCAR and F1 sucking up all the sponsors, the ones remaining will be in short supply.

So I say we keep it cheap, and try to strike a balance somewhere between the Champcars and the IRL Indycars. A 2-season competitive lifespan on the chassis (the tubs at least, with update kits supplied from the factories, not by the teams), engines which don't weigh as much as the IRL engines (which are causing loads of injuries because they're so rear-heavy, and hit the wall butt-first), but don't cost nearly so much as the 2.65L Champcar engines, and have a lot of torque, instead of just peak horsepower... I'm talking about 650hp as a target figure. Leased engines are an inevitability if you're dealing with Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, or even Ford, I'm afraid... But they do help to keep the playing field even _within_ a manufacturer's ranks.

A winter series in 2 year-old cars with spec engines, and a schedule of two thirds to half ovals are the best ways I can figure to give the USAC kids a fair shot... Sadly, it comes down to money in a lot of these deals, and _that's_ a main reason I emphasize value, so they teams don't have to look to their drivers to pay them to put a barely competitive car on the grid.

The winter series would also be a good place to show your skills because it would never leave the continent, cutting running costs enormously... And let's face it, it'd be the only show in town, so it'd be sure to draw some audience and sponsors! I mean, if we've got good weather, why not race?
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Old 10 May 2003, 21:14 (Ref:595683)   #81
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A lot of good points there, Fish.

As far as the contracts, though... The formation of an Indycar Federation (good name!) would actually be made quite simple if both series declared bankruptcy. And let's face it, if Tony George didn't support the IRL, they would be... And CART's cash reserves won't hold out for long. Then the new Indycar Federation can pick up the best assets and contracts in bankrupcy court.

The biggest cultural sticking points I can see are 1. the schism between the big leagues and the traditional open-wheel series, like WoO and USAC, and 2. the snobbish Euro-centric attitude of many CART fans, an ugly side to the series that I've only started to recognize since we start this thread... And I'm glad I did. Too many people have gotten Champcars completely confused with a zero-oval international series... Which it most definitely is not, nor was it ever, nor could it survive as! There are already many series filling that niche (F1, F3000 (soon to be F2 again, yippee!), the Superfund World Series, and to a lesser extend, many others.

As for that sprint/midget-IRL schism... I think that goes to two things... The aforementioned Eurosnob mentality, and secondly, a lack of sponsorship for American drivers. And the only way to bring back those sponsors _is_ to get the two series back together! Looking at Tony Stewart in particular, the jump in terms of driving style isn't that huge... You've got to be fast in one to be fast in the other!

With the technical package... The one thing I absolutely have to emphasize is VALUE! Value honestly has to be the keyword of the whole series... The economic boom of the '90s will not come back in _such_ force for many decades... And with NASCAR and F1 sucking up all the sponsors, the ones remaining will be in short supply.

So I say we keep it cheap, and try to strike a balance somewhere between the Champcars and the IRL Indycars. A 2-season competitive lifespan on the chassis (the tubs at least, with update kits supplied from the factories, not by the teams), engines which don't weigh as much as the IRL engines (which are causing loads of injuries because they're so rear-heavy, and hit the wall butt-first), but don't cost nearly so much as the 2.65L Champcar engines, and have a lot of torque, instead of just peak horsepower... I'm talking about 650hp as a target figure. Leased engines are an inevitability if you're dealing with Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, or even Ford, I'm afraid... But they do help to keep the playing field even _within_ a manufacturer's ranks.

A winter series in 2 year-old cars with spec engines, and a schedule of two thirds to half ovals are the best ways I can figure to give the USAC kids a fair shot... Sadly, it comes down to money in a lot of these deals, and _that's_ a main reason I emphasize value, so they teams don't have to look to their drivers to pay them to put a barely competitive car on the grid.

The winter series would also be a good place to show your skills because it would never leave the continent, cutting running costs enormously... And let's face it, it'd be the only show in town, so it'd be sure to draw some audience and sponsors! I mean, if we've got good weather, why not race?
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Old 10 May 2003, 21:33 (Ref:595695)   #82
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The things is you guys are all working out logistics(scheduling, cars, feeder series, etc), which are relatively simple and not a problem to work out. The challenge in getting these two series together has more to do with the business side of things than what happens on the track. They are two completely different groups of people with very different views on both racing and business. I think you'll probably see the IRL merge with Nascar (they're already pretty close) before you see Cart merge with the IRL.
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Old 10 May 2003, 21:54 (Ref:595717)   #83
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The leadership of both series has failed miserably and needs to go if either is to survive. Neither CART nor the IRL is going to survive as a corporate entity. CART hemorrages money, and the IRL only survives because of Tony George's funneling of cash from the Speedway to the series.

The fans have to come together first and give a mandate to guys like Mario who are trying to bring things together.
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Old 10 May 2003, 22:01 (Ref:595722)   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Janotta
The biggest cultural sticking points I can see are 1. the schism between the big leagues and the traditional open-wheel series, like WoO and USAC, and 2. the snobbish Euro-centric attitude of many CART fans, an ugly side to the series that I've only started to recognize since we start this thread... And I'm glad I did. Too many people have gotten Champcars completely confused with a zero-oval international series... Which it most definitely is not, nor was it ever, nor could it survive as! There are already many series filling that niche (F1, F3000 (soon to be F2 again, yippee!), the Superfund World Series, and to a lesser extend, many others.
I want to get it out in the open that I think Indycar racing should be American with an international flavor, not the other way around. I have no problem if a down-and-out European racer comes here to give his career a second chance, like Alex Zanardi did. And there is no reason why a Formula 3000 champion shouldn't secure a CART ride if his only alternative is to wander around Europe looking for rides that aren't there, as was the case for Montoya, Junqueira, and Bourdais. But, every seat in the series shouldn't be filled by foreigners with rich daddies who have no intentions of staying around, like how much of this year's CART and IRL fields are.

Quote:
A winter series in 2 year-old cars with spec engines, and a schedule of two thirds to half ovals are the best ways I can figure to give the USAC kids a fair shot... Sadly, it comes down to money in a lot of these deals, and _that's_ a main reason I emphasize value, so they teams don't have to look to their drivers to pay them to put a barely competitive car on the grid.

The winter series would also be a good place to show your skills because it would never leave the continent, cutting running costs enormously... And let's face it, it'd be the only show in town, so it'd be sure to draw some audience and sponsors! I mean, if we've got good weather, why not race?
How do you plan to do that during the winter? An inaugural race at Fontana during the 500 weekend, followed by Willow Springs, Las Vegas, and Phoenix, followed by a Christmas vacation, then a move to Florida, racing at Homestead, Sebring, then Homestead again, with maybe a finale at St. Pete's? That's genius!
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Old 10 May 2003, 22:22 (Ref:595741)   #85
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Why would TG want to cooperate with CART? Kanaan, Castroneves, De Ferran, Brack, Giafonne, Dixon, Scheckter, Franchiti, Andretti are all in the IRL. I don't think adding Bourdais, Junqueira or Jordain is very important.

The year is no longer 1996 or 1998. CART in 2003 is losing millions by the quarter. The Best drivers and teams are now in the IRL. Hopefully Tony George will cherry pick the few owners and sponsors in CART worth anything like Haas and Lilly. A little birdie tells me Lilly might support the IRL in some fashion next year. Shut them down!

But really very little meat remains on the carcass.
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Old 10 May 2003, 22:23 (Ref:595742)   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fish_Flake
I want to get it out in the open that I think Indycar racing should be American with an international flavor, not the other way around. I have no problem if a down-and-out European racer comes here to give his career a second chance, like Alex Zanardi did. And there is no reason why a Formula 3000 champion shouldn't secure a CART ride if his only alternative is to wander around Europe looking for rides that aren't there, as was the case for Montoya, Junqueira, and Bourdais. But, every seat in the series shouldn't be filled by foreigners with rich daddies who have no intentions of staying around, like how much of this year's CART and IRL fields are.
Amen, my feelings exactly!

Quote:
How do you plan to do that during the winter? An inaugural race at Fontana during the 500 weekend, followed by Willow Springs, Las Vegas, and Phoenix, followed by a Christmas vacation, then a move to Florida, racing at Homestead, Sebring, then Homestead again, with maybe a finale at St. Pete's? That's genius!
It's good! It'd take a lot of fine negotiation to decided which races would be on the Indycar World Series, and which would be on the Winter Series... But between Mexico and the southern US, we've got more than enough venues to put together a great schedule, and like I said, no competition! We might even gain some NASCAR converts that way.
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Old 10 May 2003, 22:53 (Ref:595772)   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by rush1
Why would TG want to cooperate with CART? Kanaan, Castroneves, De Ferran, Brack, Giafonne, Dixon, Scheckter, Franchiti, Andretti are all in the IRL. I don't think adding Bourdais, Junqueira or Jordain is very important.

The year is no longer 1996 or 1998. CART in 2003 is losing millions by the quarter. The Best drivers and teams are now in the IRL. Hopefully Tony George will cherry pick the few owners and sponsors in CART worth anything like Haas and Lilly. A little birdie tells me Lilly might support the IRL in some fashion next year. Shut them down!

But really very little meat remains on the carcass.
I addressed this in the parallel thread on the CART forum, actually. CART, for one thing, can actually attract fans to the races! I know from my own experience here in Cleveland, that the promoters nearly got chased out of town when it was leaked that they were in negotiations with the IRL. The people demanded CART, and they got CART. Believe me, the night race will only make them more fanatically loyal.
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Old 10 May 2003, 23:14 (Ref:595778)   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by rush1
Why would TG want to cooperate with CART? Kanaan, Castroneves, De Ferran, Brack, Giafonne, Dixon, Scheckter, Franchiti, Andretti are all in the IRL. I don't think adding Bourdais, Junqueira or Jordain is very important.

The year is no longer 1996 or 1998. CART in 2003 is losing millions by the quarter. The Best drivers and teams are now in the IRL. Hopefully Tony George will cherry pick the few owners and sponsors in CART worth anything like Haas and Lilly. A little birdie tells me Lilly might support the IRL in some fashion next year. Shut them down!

But really very little meat remains on the carcass.
I addressed this in the parallel thread on the CART forum, actually. CART, for one thing, can actually attract fans to the races! I know from my own experience here in Cleveland, that the promoters nearly got chased out of town when it was leaked that they were in negotiations with the IRL. The people demanded CART, and they got CART. Believe me, the night race will only make them more fanatically loyal.
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Old 11 May 2003, 04:36 (Ref:595874)   #89
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We still need some incentive for both sides to come together. What is compromised to make the deal happen?

Does anyone have any problem with the way CART was a few years back with gobs of passing at all but two tracks, drivers, sponsors, teams? CART can still do that kind of race, but its a matter of execution. Pook has stabalized the series, but failed to ensure the on the track action is second to none. Under these circumstance I fail to see what CART can compromise to work with the IRL.

IRL obviously has THE race and some other good tracks. At the moment they've got some good names, although some of CART's names are simply less known. They will be become bigger (Jourdain being a perfect example), just like the CART built names now in the IRL.

One might argue that IRL has more passing and CART could adopt their car configuration. I am quiet adiment that the IRL does have passing, but it's not the kind of passing we want to see. Driving flat out and turning is not racing because the cars are not challanging enough to drive (yes I know I couldn't do it). Some have argued that CART's hanford device races of a couple years back had this problem too. I think the best always rose to the top and it was still a good test of driver ability.

In terms of the basic car layout, CART has the more cost effective, powerfull engine with potential for a lot more. IRL cars are heavy and the brakes are ill suited to non-ovals. Safety is also questionable.

The original IRL philosophy of lower cost, American racing is no longer a difference between the series. Neither has either.

In the end it's about the players involved, who controls what and who gets the money. CART seems to work better when controlled from the top but TG is rather self indulgent and would likely cause another split in the future. How do you resolve that?
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Old 12 May 2003, 16:18 (Ref:597081)   #90
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Quote:
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I think Cart can survive if they foget about Indy completely and start to carve out their own niche. Indy would be good for the TV, etc, but that's not going to happen and Cart has to deal with it (they are). Cart is trying to compete with Indy which may or may not work. I really wouldn't mind if Cart simply became a smaller, lower budget series of mostly street/road circuits with an oval or two.
If both series are to survive, one of them needs to differentiate (sp?) itself from the other. All-Ovals vs. a mix, and non-turbo vs. turbo are not enough. Right now, there are a lot of folks that don't know the difference, that might be interested in one or the other if they did know. Instead, they think of all the things they don't like about "Indy Cars" ("too many road courses" or "too many ovals" or whatver) and lump them both together in their minds.
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Old 12 May 2003, 16:31 (Ref:597096)   #91
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Amen, my feelings exactly!
Mine, too! Foreign drivers don't bother me, so long as this is where they want to be. A good example is Dan Wheldon, who is from the UK. From the way he talks, I'd say he looked to Indy as a goal at a young age.
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Old 12 May 2003, 21:04 (Ref:597387)   #92
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OK...so the general aim of the One Open Wheel Series is to surpass NASCAR in tearms of popularity and become the permier racing series in North America. But, what does NASCAR have that OW racing does not? I cannot honestly see what makes NASCAR more popular. Sure, it's had names like Richard Petty, Dale Earnhart and Jeff Gordon but what makes them "bigger" than Mario Andretti, Micheal Andretti, A.J Foyt, Alex Zanardi or Al Unser? I watched some of that NASCAR race on EuroSport which was on after CART...what I watched was not quality racing at all. CART on the other hand, had an excellent race with the German 500. All three of this year's IndyCar races have featured better racing as well than what I have seen in NASCAR so far.

So what makes NASCAR popular, and how can we better it?
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Old 13 May 2003, 03:38 (Ref:597569)   #93
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NASCAR's marketing is absolutely brilliant. Has been for decades. It's like a soap opera, really! We've always had trouble getting a real storyline going in Indycars, even in the halcyon days.

NASCAR's just so full of characters. I complain about it, and yet even _I_ enjoy watching shows like Inside NASCAR Winston Cup. Those guys really love what they're doing, and it shows! I remember an ep where Michael Waltrip was late for the show, the other guys put Mikey's shirt over the chair, and were trying to include the shirt in the conversation!

Indycars really can't get to that level without the support of Speed Channel and, well, a lot of luck. But we at least need a _lot_ more attention paid to the driver's backgrounds and personalities! A roundtable show sure wouldn't hurt.

Honestly, I don't believe we can surpass NASCAR. We missed the boat with this stupid war. But we can get a lot closer with some really talented and charismatic Americans running at the front. And CART has penetration in the Latino market that NASCAR can only dream of.
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Old 15 May 2003, 02:59 (Ref:599288)   #94
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Well, sorry guys, the CART fans won't go for it, it seems. Most of them started watching post-split and are perfectly happy with F1 lite.
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Old 31 May 2003, 14:09 (Ref:615824)   #95
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3state should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A united series may be a good idea but at this present stage it is untenable, and even then it is unlikely that the combined series would survive. Besides, the two series have diverged so much that there is very little common ground nowadays. This is probably why, other than a handful like rush1 (hey rush ) continue with th flame wars between the two series.

What i would like to see is the two series cooperate and have friendly relations, realising that they draw on the same pool of talent for racers, teams, engineers, etc. Maybe we could have quest appearances from IRL teams at Champcar races and visa versa, kind of a good will gesture. A combined marketing initiative to attract supporters to both series and attract sponsors (the two major factors impacting on the survival and success of both series). Set up promotions to provide special offers for those purshasing a ticket for a CART or an IRL face to get a discounted rate to a ticket at a race for the other series. So, if a CART fan attends a CART race, their ticket makes then eligible for a discount at any IRL race and visa versa. This way the series not only fosters goodwill with the fans but creates a larger pool of supporters which may well almost rival NASCAR. True racing fans like racing. I know I watch CART,F1,WRC, and the occasional tourer. It needn't be an either/or situation if relations are good between the two series. I'd be willing to watch more IRL races if relations were better...Sponsors would be happier too...

It's time for the war to end...although I'm a Cart fan, I'm tired of the one-eyed fans on both sides...give it up guys.
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Old 31 May 2003, 15:04 (Ref:615892)   #96
Jay
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Jay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Excellent ideas 3state! No doubt, both series would be in much better positions if they could work with each other. That doesn't necessarily mean one series, but a little co-operation would could go a long way.
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Old 31 May 2003, 15:20 (Ref:615904)   #97
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3state should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
thanks Jay! over time, fostering better relations and the healing of old wounds may just lead to a unification. I'm certain that the two series certainly wouldn't be in a worse position than they are now by undertaking these forms of co-operation. It may just help the casual racefan at least realise there are two premiere open wheel series in the US rather than confusing the two...
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