Loss of Engine Air

[903cc]

All

Webber had to stop due to Loss of Engine Air. I do not understand this one. I thought the air for the engine would have come from the Atmosphere. But obviously not so. Can someone out there explain what happened here?

[DNQ]

That's a new one to me too.

[Irv the Swerve]

It used to be the case that the engines would run on a pneumatic variable valve system with operated on a pressurised air system built into the car. There was a canister of the gas built into the side pod and this operated the valves. Sometimes (Adelaide'95 Irvine Jordan for one) the system ran low either on air or pressure and had to be topped up at a pitstop.

It could be that, or the air intake above the drivers head could have been blocked of damaged.

As with everything I say, this could be complete arse.

[aussie_f3]

I think it may be a "Webberism" for "Jag and I failed again"

[Mark Webber]

Your'e pretty close to the mark Irv

[Irv the Swerve]

how come they didn't just top him up at a pitstop then?
Maybe they didn't catch it in time.

[Rick]

Thats what they did at the first pit stop, but it didn't work. Very sad "aussie_f3".

[Glen]

It is nitrogen, used in high pressure form to spring the valves - it can be topped up, but I guess if you're losing a lot of it they can't top it up frequently enough.

[aussie_f3]

Originally posted by Rick
Thats what they did at the first pit stop, but it didn't work. Very sad "aussie_f3".

I'm just sick of hearing how great Webber is in the week leading up to a race and then seeing him and his car fail when it matters - Jag obviously need a real Test Driver to work out the problems with the car - Webber and Pizza Boy obviously cant simulate race conditions in testing to show the mechanics what needs work

[jetsetter]

Originally posted by aussie_f3
I think it may be a "Webberism" for "Jag and I failed again"

Admittedly Jaguar have failed a few times this season but where has Webber failed?

[Fan]

Originally posted by jetsetter
Admittedly Jaguar have failed a few times this season but where has Webber failed?

Sao Paulo

[gttouring]

Every one but Massa and Raikkonen failed at Sao Paulo- even third place car was wrecked...

[Fan]

Originally posted by gttouring
Every one but Massa and Raikkonen failed at Sao Paulo- even third place car was wrecked...

True, but Webber made his first (and only IIRC) mistake of the year by running wide into the last corner. I'm not knocking the guy - I think he's mega!

[JR Ewing]

Originally posted by gttouring
Every one but Massa and Raikkonen failed at Sao Paulo- even third place car was wrecked...

Massa?

[williamsf1]

if you noticed the first "stop" out of sequence also.... the team places a line to the car on the LHS side near the cockpit opening, this tops up the "engine air" i.e. nitrogen to power the valve return system... this system usually is a non-loss system, with a closed loop effect, but many things can cause it to leak, i.e. a damaged seal etc.....

they topped it up to see if it could be quck fixed, but must have been a major leak, no reason to lunch the engine for this deffinate DNF.

and webber made a mistake in Brazil, but I think that was his spin not his crash! ask him to tell you about the data on the car.... wishbone failure anyone????

[golem]

f3, Same thing happened to Williams BMW last(?) year some time, but I can't remember when. Ralf had to come in for a last minute top up and it wasn't fuel but pneumatic valve air.
Obviously their test driver doesn't drive hard enough. Neither JPM or Ralf are decent drivers. Or Gene.

[gttouring]

MASSA? i MEANT fISI i sound like a dope

[Mr V]

Originally posted by golem

Obviously their test driver doesn't drive hard enough. Neither JPM or Ralf are decent drivers. Or Gene.

So, by defination, Webbers also not good enough because his car produced a leak! give me a break, these things happen and no matter how good or bad a driver is, something like this can't be tested for.

Thats like saying that a drivers not a good tyre tester because he might have once had a puncture!

[Splatz the Cow]

Quick everyone, put on your flame proof suits.
-Golem's posting.

[golem]

I was being sarcastic in response to this:

"I'm just sick of hearing how great Webber is in the week leading up to a race and then seeing him and his car fail when it matters - Jag obviously need a real Test Driver to work out the problems with the car - Webber and Pizza Boy obviously cant simulate race conditions in testing to show the mechanics what needs work."

And here's the word that bugged me. Obvious.
Maybe to you.

But to me, I was more than a little annoyed that a driver can be blamed for things like suspension, driveshaft, electronics, Traction control and engine reliability. They can feel a cars handling characteristics but I doubt very much if even Gene or Wurz could pick up amongst the cacophony and rattles that a component is a 40% chance to break or whatever.
They just drive it as hard as they're told to and feedback the result in terms of feedback and performance. Easy/hard to drive, under/over steers, twitchy/soft, etc.

It's the engineer and mechanics jobs to look at the wear, the fatigue, analyse the components, check the sensors, listen to the sounds and figure out how healthy things are.

I'm sure they drive that thing up to the auto gearchange point the same when testing as they do when driving.

Where they drive it, what they're told to do, how many laps they are given, how many laps the mechanics put a component through before signing off the testing plans... these are things that test out the componentry.

If race pace on a test track was somewhat important, (hell, remotely important.) then why do you think Ferrari would test with anyone other than Schue and Barri? I know they test with them as well, but this allows the drivers familiarity with their car as well as optimisation of setup to the driver. I doubt very much if it has anything whatsoever to do with the other drivers not punishing the car enough. If they didn't punish it enough, the tests would be deemed useless by Ferrari and they'd put in the better drivers. But for development of components speed is fairly important but feedback is what gets someone like Badoer chosen over someone like Barrichello perhaps in terms of development test miles.

That is why I was being sarcastic. I don't think it's 'obvious' at all that Webber and Pizzonia don't punish the car enough. I think if that's the case it's pretty damn unusual tell the truth.

There was an interview with Gary Anderson in F1 magazine a few months ago, former technical head of Jag F1 and how they where having constant gearbox problems on their cars. It'd been costly. 'Obviously' Irvine hadn't tested the car thoroughly enough.
Uh, no. Anderson was told specifically not to solve it by the team manager, that his role was that of director, and he was to direct the team. The part engineers would handle it.
Of course it kept happening, and so GA got fed up, went with a few guys and sorted the problem out. However, (If GA is to be believed and having seen and read a few things about team management and project management during my degree simply in software development, I believe it. You do get people like this) the team manager got annoyed/angry at GA for doing this.
His line was 'The system will solve the problem'
GA's thoughts run along the lines of 'I could and did solve it faster.'

However, you're somewhere along the lines of, 'screw the system or the engineers, the drivers can't test properly.'

Now while the team is a vastly differant Jag, they most probably still have problems of some kinds for potentially differant reasons you or I can't pinpoint. And I'll definately conceed there's that remote possibility that the drivers may in fact get to the test track and hang their feet up. I can just see that inspiring the Jag team into signing mark on for two years.
But Obvious? Obviously not.

[Mark Webber]

this year was always going to be a building year after 2 bad years Jag is really making some big foward movement I still feel that (and I say this with all respect) Jag need a decent 2nd driver Piazza boy is good but just not up to it
wheather Sir Frank thinks his hot our not ( FW25 is no great car) But just relying on Mark is still not the best way you need to good driver's giving input and Jag haven't got the luxury of resting both driver need to be good from the get go . But one thig is clear Mark has put the Jag in places where it should might not have been not saying the car is not 100% better than previous years .

But golem I think you are judging him way to hard or have I misread you?. Wheather you dislike the Webber hype or not it is just the same as the Fissi hype afterhis right place right time win ( I counted 9 different threads onFissi after that gp saying his the next big thing ) or the consant jpm thread saying if this if that . Webber is the future in F1 with names like Kimmi & Alonso and it will be a golden area as all three drivers have "something " about them and even better I think you will find diff makes fighting it out MAC JAG RENAULT and that sounds good to me

[aussie_f3]

Hey Golem...your opinions are "obviously" more important to you than the opinions of others - nice prose btw!!! ....want to have $10 on both Jags not finishing in Canada?

[golem]

I think you misread me. My whole point is if Mark and Ant are doing a poor job in testing, then so are JPM, Gene, Ralf Schu, Jaques, Panis, et al.

I have written my thoughts in point form:
a) I think Mark is doing a fine job besides his one screw up at brazil.
b) I think Pizzonia is doing an average one. He's had alot of problems, but I think Wilson has made a better meal of his chances for example. Or DaMatta.
c) I have no idea where Jag's problems are coming from but I have a strong suspicion it's not their test drivers.
d) I am not flaming, merely trying to dispel the aforementioned Idea that the problem at Jaguar is driver based.
e) If you can come up with something substantial to make me think that Mark and Pizzonia aren't doing their jobs in testing then by all means, I'd love to see it. Until then, I won't buy that the problem is 'obvious.'

Love and kisses,
Golem.

[aussie_f3]

Mateeee....all I am saying is that if they were testing the cars "hard" they would be discovering all the the little p*ss f*art things that are going wrong with the cars before race day - Mark & Pizzaboy are NOT good testers and as you have said neither are a number of other drivers - they can all drive (or they wouldnt be in a multi million dollar piece of machinery!) but they dont have a enough mechanical background/knowledge to bring the info back to the spanner men.....bring back Courtney, Jag reckon they received more info in a single test from him than a years worth testing by Eddie & Pedro
Have a great long weekend
L&K
Aussie F3

[golem]

Ok, fine.

The last time Jaguar went testing was in the leadup to Austria, in which case Pizzonia posted 91 laps. Webber was half a second slower, running earlier in the week for 111.

The cars both finished in Austria.

But there was no testing done between then and monaco.

Both cars had problems in Monaco free testing, their chance to shake out any bugs.
Both cars failed in Monaco race proper.

Any questions?