Which class?

[Heebeegeetee]

Hi all, new to this forum,

I want to compete in sprints and hillclimbs this year in my supercharged MX5. I'm not clear about which class I would compete in. The car is standard apart from the adition of the supercharger. The latest Blue Book I have is 2004 so forgive me if my info is out of date.

So, the regs for engines in Roadgoing production class is that induction is free, with a forced induction equivalency of 1.4, which I understand. The bit that confuses me is that the book then states that the car 'must remain in the same capacity class as the original car or the manufacturers specified option for the model and engine'.

I would have expected that by applying the equivalency factor I would compete in the next class up on engine capacity. If I can't do that, and I can't see how the car can remain in the same capacity class as the original car, does that mean I have tro compete in the modified production class?

[b1ackcr0w]

Welcome to HCS Heebee,

Your best bet is to contact the Competition Secretary at the clubs you wish to compete at. While their classes will be broadly similar, the amount of entrants they have in the various sports classes will vary quite a bit, which will influence which class you end up in.

Where were you thinking of competing at? I dare say there are plenty of people around who could give you pretty good educated guesses at where you'd end up. (But you do still need to hear it from the Comp Secs first hand to be sure).

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Heebeegeetee

So, the regs for engines in Roadgoing production class is that induction is free, with a forced induction equivalency of 1.4, which I understand. The bit that confuses me is that the book then states that the car 'must remain in the same capacity class as the original car or the manufacturers specified option for the model and engine'.

Don't worry HeeBeeGeeBee! This bit confuses a lot of people!

My understanding is that to use FORCED INDUCTION on a production car you must also reduce the engine capacity, so that the overall capacity after the 1.4 equivalency is applied keeps the car in the same class that it would have been in had the forced induction not been applied!

Now if that is clear you are doing better than me!

[jonners]

Nightmare

If you're running a Renault 5 Turbo it will be deemed to be 1960cc rather than 1400cc as manufactured?

Or to keep it at 1400cc you must sleeve it down to 1000cc??

And if you've added the forced induction yourself....???

Clear as mud. The same applies to over bores. Blue Book would be clearer if written in double dutch

I had a lot of trouble understanding the Blue Book and how it fits in with specific championship regulations (especially in relation to tyres - my pet subject....) when I started.

Best advice is to join the best motor club you can find (if you haven't already) and then have a long chat with the competition secretary or other competitors. Believe me, it will save you money - we took the Blue Book as gospel on a lot of things but then realised a lot of what is in there is overridden by the actual championship regs - so get hold of these first.

When you speak to the comp sec could you ask him what happens if you're running a rotary turbo diesel? I've often wondered....perhaps that should be the next quiz question???

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by jonners

If you're running a Renault 5 Turbo it will be deemed to be 1960cc rather than 1400cc as manufactured?

Or to keep it at 1400cc you must sleeve it down to 1000cc??

And if you've added the forced induction yourself....???

NO! The Renault 5 Turbo was manufactured with a 1.4 Turbo motor therefore you apply the equivalency factor and slot it in the appropriate class. The real trouble is fitting after-market Forced Induction (either Supercharger or Turbocharger). This is where the engine size must be reduced not for cars that were manufactured with Forced Induction.

It really is a minefield and like a lot of things has been allowed to slide by the MSA. What is needed is the Benevolent Dictator Approach where the MSA tell people what the rules are rather than consult. I believe in certain circumstances this is the only way forward especially where the sub-committees are totally divided and cannot come up with a logical solution.

[Heebeegeetee]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

This is where the engine size must be reduced not for cars that were manufactured with Forced Induction.

Thanks for the replies, guys. I obviously won't be reducing the size of my engine , so does that mean it would be roadgoing modified class for me?

I've looked at the 2006 regs of the Aldon championship of the HSA, and it appears they use the MSA classes as defined in the blue book.

The problem I have as I see it, is: I want to compete with my daily driver. The car is not a hot-rod, but a nippy little machine that is very nice to drive. I intend to keep it in its current condition. If I can compete in roadgoing production class, then I have some options for a roll-over bar which will allow me to continue to use my one-piece-glass-back-window-roof. (ie it has a roof that can be dropped in one move that has an integral heated rear window. I don't like to rough it, you know )

If I have to run in the modified production class it'll mean I have to use a certain configeration of roll bar which would interfere with the operation of the roof. I don't want to compromise the year-round usability of the car for what, 10 mins of motorsport action in total throughout the year?

Hmm. Didn't know things were going to be this tricky. Time to check out the Nottingham Sports Car club regs.

[Dan Friel]

My 2005 version of the Blue Book also states the requirement for the car to remain in the same capacity class even in the Modified Production class (para 12.5.1). If that hasn't changed in the last couple of years, then I think it's bad news.

Is there a Sports Libre class?

[Heebeegeetee]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

My 2005 version of the Blue Book also states the requirement for the car to remain in the same capacity class even in the Modified Production class (para 12.5.1).

Wow, hadn't noticed that.

I can't understand the ruling though, it doesn't make sense. What is the purpose of it?

[b1ackcr0w]

I think that a lot of us would be genuinely interested to hear what happens when you try and enter your steed for competition Heebee.

Would you kind enough to post an update when you've spoken with the comp secretaries and let us know what answers you get?

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

Is there a Sports Libre class?

I suspect that Libre might be the answer from some clubs, which lends weight to Steve's point about a benevolent dictator being preferable to a comittee decision, which would seem to be where this fuzzy rule was born.

[Dan Friel]

I think the rule is pretty clear cut, and you'd get the same response from every championship (unless they are runnning to technical regs completely different to the Blue Book). I expect the rule is in place to stop smaller light weight cars having a large turbo / super charger slapped on them which would make their power to weight ratio better than the bigger cars that originally had a larger capacity.. It could potentially be very expensive and unfair I guess.

[Paul Ranson]

The MX5 had either factory supplied or factory approved turbo versions. So is there actually a problem running in over 2 litre?

Paul

[Dan Friel]

Will it then depend on how many turbo MX5's were released in the UK per year?? I doubt it was ever 1000 or 5000 (I can't remember which it needs to be).

[Jim Spencer]

Hi, I think Paul's hit the nail on the head, and re Dan's post I'm pretty certain that the volume of cars is 1,000 and there's no mention of the UK. Certainly we have a few cars produced & sold solely in other countries, and now imported, that are in the wrong class if it does..

I would go for it on that basis and then let the club correct you if they thought you were wrong, after all having a good day out is what it's all about anyway

[Paul Ranson]

There have been more than 1000 MX5s made. The turbo is a specified model, allowing access to over 2 litre, induction is free so you can use a supercharger rather than a turbo. It doesn't matter how many turbos were actually made.

But I am not an eligibility scrutineer...

Paul

[Dan Friel]

I never realised that MX5 turbos were so popular! Should be an excellent car I would have thought..

As others have said, the class that you’ll be permitted in will vary from event to event. Having looked at the ACSMC regs, then I think you’ll be excluded from the standard road going class. The regs state that “Only those cars listed in the price lists of Top Gear, What Car, Autocar and Motor magazines for the year of manufacture are eligible for classes 0 to 3.” Other regs usually state something about performance enhancing "options" being excluded.

I don’t think you should have problems with a road modified type class though (even if you end up with the kit cars). Will be interesting to know where they place your car.

[Turby]

FWIW cars with forced iniduction (turbo / supercharged) running in the ASWMC championship simply run in the class above... ie 1.6 turbo runs in the 1800 to 2600 class ie 1600 * 1.4 = 2240cc

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Turby

FWIW cars with forced iniduction (turbo / supercharged) running in the ASWMC championship simply run in the class above... ie 1.6 turbo runs in the 1800 to 2600 class ie 1600 * 1.4 = 2240cc

Sensible lot in the South West!

[Heebeegeetee]

Originally Posted by Jim Spencer

after all having a good day out is what it's all about anyway

This is all that I'm after.

I've emailed the eligibility scrutineer for the championship I wanted to contend, and he kindly replied very quickly and said he doesn't have a clue either!

But this is my particular problem: I like my car as it is. It's a Mk1 circa 1997, has about 190bhp but is still on standard brakes and suspension (bear with me). Now, I have just renewed the brakes, new discs and greenstuff and stainless hoses, and the brakes are now bloody brilliant. The suspension is original and nigh on 80k miles old, but I am agonising over what to replace it with because I absolutely hate stiff, crashy, hard riding cars. I will possibly just bolt brand new standard stuff on. And I will end up with a nice, practical and useable car that is fun to drive.

I've done track days with the car, but would like to go further. I am keen to sprint/hillclimb the car because I'm looking for the... I dunno, cerebral? challenge that sprinting provides. Banging round lap after lap wearing the car out is good fun whilst it lasts, but I like the element of competition (I've been road rallying other cars for the past few years, and karts before that).

What I really don't want to do though is compromise my car too much and I want to retain its soft top. As the car is now, I am going to really struggle to fit a rool over hoop of the type Q1 in the roll cage diagrams of the blue book. If I do get one in then I definitely won't be able to drop the roof. So, I had reached the point whereby I'd decided that I won't be competing in this car then.

But the hankering won't go away. So maybe if need be, I'll have to spend a good bit of wedge in having a bespoke roll over hoop that can be removed and replaced in (hopefully) no more than an evening.

However, giving it more thought, it seems the blue book ruling actually prevents me from competing if I understand it as written, which seems a bit of a nonsense. I may be able to compete in a class of more highly modified machinery, but I'm worried that this will require something akin to a roll cage which I definitely am not interested in. Basically, I don't care what class I compete in, but I don't want to have to start chopping the car about and losing its use as a soft top to be abIe to compete.

I really need to get to the bottom of this, and yes, I'll definitly keep you all informed!

Originally Posted by Turby

FWIW cars with forced iniduction (turbo / supercharged) running in the ASWMC championship simply run in the class above... ie 1.6 turbo runs in the 1800 to 2600 class ie 1600 * 1.4 = 2240cc

I'm heading straight to their website now.

I'm based in the midlands, but stuff it, if this where I need to go to play, so be it.

[Heebeegeetee]

PS should have added - there were some BBR turbos made that I believe counted as a production car, and I believe Mazdaspeed have marketed some other turbos for the home and/or US market.. Not sure about supercharged cars though.

Mine is definitely an aftermarket job.

[jonners]

Hang on - the 1.4 equivalency factor applied by the ASWMC is more or less universal so don't assume that the ASWMC alone is where you'll find the answer because as you have already suggested the answer is not that simple.

You apply the 1.4 calculation if the car was fitted with forced induction by you or the manufacturer

I might be wrong but to compete without a roll cage and so forth on the face of it restricts you to less modified classes where non standard forced induction may not be allowed

So you have to enter the car in a class for more modified cars

BUT - and this needs checking - surely the relevant point is the car not the class you're running in - in other words if the car is roadgoing etc even if you're entered in the turbo nutter slicks and wings modsports loony class you may not have to have a roll cage.

Anyone know definitively??

[Dan Friel]

As the car is in road trim it must surely be suitable for a road production / road modified class, and avoid all of the extra safety requirements. Even if that means running in some specialist kit car type class.

With regards to the ASWMC, I think that the following rule could be open in intepretation, "Series Production Road Cars are defined as cars produced in large numbers by major manufacturers."

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by jonners

BUT - and this needs checking - surely the relevant point is the car not the class you're running in - in other words if the car is roadgoing etc even if you're entered in the turbo nutter slicks and wings modsports loony class you may not have to have a roll cage.

Anyone know definitively??

In Road Modified a 'Roll Cage' is not mandatory, however it is in Mod Prod and Sports Libre as is a Log Book. It does not matter that the car is Road Legal the rules plainly state it must have a roll cage/bar. Plus you must also have minimum of a 4 point harness in Mod Prod whilst it has to be a 6 point harness in Sports Libre. It is all in the BLUE BOOK.

I run a totally Road Legal 1970 Lotus Elan and when I asked about having a log book I was told 'No it's Road Modified you don't need one.' I then asked what if I ran the car as a Mod Prod on List 1B tyres - still road legal. Then people started to um and arh! So I asked a scrutineer the same question. His response was enlightening and went something along the lines of 'No you don't need a Log Book because it is Road Legal, however I would advise that you get one as a lot of Scrutineers would not realise that you didn't need one and you might just get thrown out of the meeting!' At this point I arranged to have the car logbooked and I can now run it in Road Modified (if I get some List 1A tyres), Mod Prod or even Sports Libre.

It is a minefield and even scrutineers seem to vary in their opinion. At Pembrey in 2006 I rolled into the Scrutineering bay and was immediately asked for my Insurance and MOT. When I pointed out that you didn't need one in Sports Libre and that I had a Log Book the Scrute was gob-smacked!

With respect to the original question about the MX5, I would consider selling the car and getting something that would be more competitive for the same money. Fitting all sorts of aftermarket products will more often than not see you ounted into a class where you will be uncompetitive. OK you still get the buzz from taking part in a great sport, your car will be a talking point in the paddock, but will you be satisfied?

[jonners]

Here we go - another messy area in the regulations

Our car is a Mk 2 Lotus Cortina - road legal and driven to every meeting.

We now run cut slicks (er, only at the meeting, obviously) so in the ASWMC championship have to run in the slicks class. We've never been asked for a log book.

But then again we have at Prescott.

Rule enforcement is frustrating becase you see some characters getting away with murder...which is very frustrating when you've gone to the nth degree to get everything as it should be

Two points. The comment above about the car being ok in the roadgoing classes because it is roadgoing should be treated with caution. Many championships (forget the blue book for a moment) won't allow non standard forced induction in these classes.

And experience tells me that with any car that is not an obvious choice (Escorts, Elans, Locaterfields, Imprezas, M3's etc are the obvious choices) you have to make a very deliberate informed decision about whether it's sensible to go ahead with a particular car just because you're in love with it. I understand why you're doing it but you are trying to fit a square peg through a round hole. No disrespect. I've done the same. If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have started from here - and all that.

Steve's advice is worth bearing in mind. The horizon will look much clearer with a different car. In a way the car shouldn't be the priority. I think the desire of every competitor to have regulations that favour his/her particular car is one of the things killing club circuit racing.

All this should be taken with a pinch of salt of course - only you know what you want - but once you get out there, even in a class where your car is not competetive, you WILL want to improve because that's what speed events are all about - and the regs may be a source of unending frustration for you.

Blimey - hark at me rambling like a good un...

[Jonners Dad]

Maybe there is a way around all this. If you are interested in hillclimbs, why not join the Bugatti Owners Club and compete in their Members Handicap? The club have introduced this class at specific meetings and there are no capacity or car type divisions. Jonners and I have run in this class last year and I have checked the results sheet and we were running against Mitsubishi EVO, Audi Quattro and a Subaru Impreza so there was a wide diversity of car types but it was all against your own handicap time. In fact second place was taken by a friends road legal Lotus Cortina. All you need is the usual club membership, B licenec overalls and helmet. Good fun!
I will recheck last years Supplementary Regs when I can find them to recheck what I have said, but there is nothing I can see in the 2005 regs that contradicts the above. If I find something I will post another reply.
Good luck.

[fyrth]

Another option if the Lotus Cortina was built before 1975 is to join the HSA and do their 'B' championship in the pre '75 class and have a variety of hills including two at Prescott as well as Shelsley, Loton, Wiscombe, Werrington and Gurston - and even some sprints, details at www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk