Parting of the Ways?

[old man]

With a very healthy 30 starters in the LMP classes at the weekend and the success of the production engined Lola Aston the Sportscar section of the sport as we know it looks very healthy and dynamic. Audi, Peugeot, Porsche and Accura are seeing the value in marketing terms so it becomes a big market for the small race car manufacturers, a success story

GT Racing on the other hand is only healthy in GT2, 3 and now 4

Are we reaching a position where Sportscar racing will be ACO based with series only catering for LMP's and the LM 24 featuring the same whilst the Ratel FIA series runs with it's own big 24 hour event at Spa as a totally separate series on a world stage

Is it too difficult to televise a 4 class series with equal coverage to all classes and even to provide sufficient information to spectators at the track with 4 winners posible in a race? Are we coming to a parting of the ways for Sportscar and GT racing?

[diffuser]

One could go into long oppinionated views on this, but the answer is actually rather simple. If the ACO could guarantee itself a full field of 55 Prototypes for an extended period of time - say 5 years? - GT's would be gone wuicker than they can lap LeMans.
GT cars are let into LM whenever the Prototypes don't fill the grid. Last time this happened was 1993, when the WSC failed and we had the smallest starting field in recent memory. One year later, the GT's were there to fill up the grid.
The interesting fact is that Don Panoz some years later took a field that was slowly getting back up in terms of prototypes and made the 4 class emergency option a steady rule in the ALMS. That proved rather popular with the crowds and so the ACO let it continue. But you're right, the number of Prototypes is increasing again and the number of GT's is dwindling - I'd say soon after the coupes rules are instated in 2010 we will see Prototypes only at LeMans again.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by diffuser

Last time this happened was 1993, when the WSC failed and we had the smallest starting field in recent memory. One year later, the GT's were there to fill up the grid.

I think 1992 was that smallest grid. The field was bolstered in 1993 by the addition of the GTs after the FIA effectively killed off the WSC.....

It's a point which will inevitably provoke great argument, but my money would always be on a full grid of protos at Le Mans. Period.

[diffuser]

Right, got my years confused, sorry. It was '92 with just 28 starters.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by old man

Are we reaching a position where Sportscar racing will be ACO based with series only catering for LMP's and the LM 24 featuring the same whilst the Ratel FIA series runs with it's own big 24 hour event at Spa as a totally separate series on a world stage

That would be great because the ACO-IMSA conncection would be severed in the twinkling of an eye and US racing could get healthy again.

[gucom]

The arguments make sense, but I'd love to see GT cars stay... I guess I like GT's better than prototypes and I can't remember a Le Mans era without GT's, I have only read about it, so for me they're an integral part of the race... My ideal situation would be if the GT1 and GT2 were merged into one class taking up some 20 cars, leaving room for 35 prototypes...

I also see no real problems in the ACO / IMSA link to be honest (despite the oddities of the IMSA changing rules in favour of spectacle instead of consistency), and if US racing is considered unhealthy, why isn't there something else? No1 is forcing anyone to be in the ALMS, but its popularity is increasing as far as I know, so they must be doing something right (although ofcourse LMP1 and GT1 are in bad shape there)...

[diffuser]

It's not the ACO's fault that the ALMS is struggling...

[AU N EGL]

With Intentet Television having both protos and GTs covered would be possible.

[JAG]

It's preferable to have 35 top quality protoypes and 20 quality GT's (preferably in a single class), than 35 quality prototypes, then scrapping around for another 20 protoype entries.

In the LMS you will never have many more than 30-35 prototypes, so a quality GT field is needed for 1000k races.

[johntt]

The only problem class is the GT1s, IMO they need to merge GT1 and GT2 under GT2 rules. Otherwise keep the mix of LMPs and GTs at LM.

[GT6]

In the lean years the grid at Lemans has always been swelled by the cheaper to run GT's this gives a chance for smaller teams to race and gives experience to many drivers who gain experience and then move on to the proto types in future races. Without those GT's Lemans could have withered away and the fact that if the prototype race is not that close the GT's will always provide some interest. Different classes and different lap times add to interest in this type of racing and mean that you never get the boring processions seen in some other types of races

[Purist]

I think GT2 is a good class, but of the GTs, it's the GT1s that really excite me. I think the biggest thing that would help there is re-evaluating the allowed modifications, particularly the allowance of greater changes simply based on a higher production volume. I won't deny that the Corvette is a potent car to begin with, especially for the money. However, it shouldn't automatically get a potential leg up on Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, etc because GM can produce more Corvettes than those other companies can hope to produce in terms of DBR9s, 575GTCs, MC12s, etc.

Bob, just one problem with your little theory. Among the works-supported programs, only Porsche's is centered around the US. Audi, Acura, even Corvette are all looking to Le Mans as the pinnacle of what they want to achieve. The same is true of the serious/top-notch GT2 teams running 997 RSRs and F430 GTs.

So Corvette is looking to the big European race. Meanwhile, the rest of the major racing branches of the "Big Three" are too entrenched in a series where they're racing cars that are spec and don't even look like street product to give a crap about anything else. Most of Trans-Am was composed of American cars; where's that series now?

Without the Le Mans carrot, what is the point of the ALMS? And sadly, I'm not terribly enthralled with Grand-Am. I watch it, and can enjoy it while I watch, but I don't have that passion for it. So the sportscar alternative here in the US is not one I'm too excited about.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think GT2 is a good class, but of the GTs, it's the GT1s that really excite me. I think the biggest thing that would help there is re-evaluating the allowed modifications, particularly the allowance of greater changes simply based on a higher production volume. I won't deny that the Corvette is a potent car to begin with, especially for the money. However, it shouldn't automatically get a potential leg up on Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, etc because GM can produce more Corvettes than those other companies can hope to produce in terms of DBR9s, 575GTCs, MC12s, etc.

Bob, just one problem with your little theory. Among the works-supported programs, only Porsche's is centered around the US. Audi, Acura, even Corvette are all looking to Le Mans as the pinnacle of what they want to achieve. The same is true of the serious/top-notch GT2 teams running 997 RSRs and F430 GTs.

So Corvette is looking to the big European race. Meanwhile, the rest of the major racing branches of the "Big Three" are too entrenched in a series where they're racing cars that are spec and don't even look like street product to give a crap about anything else. Most of Trans-Am was composed of American cars; where's that series now?

Without the Le Mans carrot, what is the point of the ALMS? And sadly, I'm not terribly enthralled with Grand-Am. I watch it, and can enjoy it while I watch, but I don't have that passion for it. So the sportscar alternative here in the US is not one I'm too excited about.

Detroit watches its homebase, LeMans is like a zit on a gnats butt concerning sales.
Beyond this forum and similar pages, LeMans is like Indy, some place people have heard of before, but not much now.
Bob

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think 1992 was that smallest grid. The field was bolstered in 1993 by the addition of the GTs after the FIA effectively killed off the WSC.....

You also need to take into account the world recession that was biting very hard in the early 90's. Without that the situation may have been different and we should not overlook the fact the world if facing another one now.

Bob, Its clear you hate Le Mans with as much passion as others that love it, but to say its a zit on a gnats butt concerning sales is wide of the mark, if that was the case NO ONE would bother and the race would be Gentleman drivers only without sponsors. It still ranks as a mjor event dispite what you want to think.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Beyond this forum and similar pages, LeMans is like Indy, some place people have heard of before, but not much now.
Bob

I have to say that in 7 years posting here, that's the most ridiculous statement I've ever read.......

Ask the quarter mill who went to Le Mans last year.....

I think you need to qualify your use of the word 'people'........


IMO, as always......

[Aysedasi]

As for numbers, if we have to have GTs at Le Mans (and I recognise the fact that the involvement of GTs has enabled Le Mans to survive since 1992), the 35/20 split is OK with me. In fact, now that we have moved on a little from a GT2 populated almost exclusively by 911 derivatives, its a great improvement on where we started post WSC in 1993/94.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

As for numbers, if we have to have GTs at Le Mans (and I recognise the fact that the involvement of GTs has enabled Le Mans to survive since 1992), the 35/20 split is OK with me. In fact, now that we have moved on a little from a GT2 populated almost exclusively by 911 derivatives, its a great improvement on where we started post WSC in 1993/94.

I totally agree the format is working very well for Le mans at the moment, record numbers of spectators and good quality full grids.

However, the ACO must look to the future and anticipate weak class entries to see if changes need to be made to ensure that they are not left behind. The growth of the non GT1 classes outside of Le mans and its stable of races should mean changes to reflect the GT Classes must be coming soon.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's preferable to have 35 top quality protoypes and 20 quality GT's (preferably in a single class), than 35 quality prototypes, then scrapping around for another 20 protoype entries.

While I have absolutely no problem with the GT cars on the grid, it would be easy for the ACO to have a full 55 Prototype grid, if they created a proper LMP3 class for VdeV cars and other small prototypes. There are plenty of those in Europe and the cars are reasonably fast.

[diffuser]

VdeV and other such classes are on the whole amateur racing, while the LMS is a professional series. Two different worlds.

[old man]

Speed-king makes a very good point and the growth of the smaller "LMP3" class in Europe would offer the ACO a full grid of that general genre. The logic then is that the GT teams lose the carrot of Le Mans and unless Ratel can develop the GT series and the Spa race to pull publicity and TV many of the present GT teams would go LMP3.

I have thought for some time that one GT class with bigger restrictors for the 997 and 430 would make exciting racing and with Corvette and Aston already moving towards GT2 we have that as a real possibility. Ratel, or whoever runs the GT series could use GT3 as grid fillers as the ACO have done with GT1 and 2. What this GT series would need is good promotion to gain spectators and profile as it develops into a proper World Series and the entrants may be persuaded to provide some extra money if they had a say in how that profile is developed.

[diffuser]

I'm sorry I have to say the same thing twice, but having LMP3 enter LeMans would be the death of it. LeMans and the LeMans Series are supposed to be the pinnacle of Sportscar racing. The lower classes - LMP3, GT3 and such are amateur and national series, entered mainly by people who have real life jobs and do this as a hobby. Granted, there are amateur drivers in the LMS and Lemans, but most of those are there only to bring in the money.
If you let LMP3/GT3 compete with the big boys, you're one step away from the Nurburgring 24 hours, where people take part in their street cars. Having that at LeMans would be an utter disaster. Not only from the sporting point, but it would also turn off many fans who want to see professional racing.

And also, there is no need to change anything right now, not in Europe at least. LeMans gets 70+ cars that want to enter and the LMS has more participants in any of it's categories than the ALMS altogether. ALMS is another matter of course, major restructuring/rethinking of those bizarre rule changes needed there.

[johntt]

The only time we should have GT3 and VdeV/LMP3 cars running at La Sarthe should be some kind of 500km race on the test weekend. Would bring more people in and act as a nice warmup for the 24 a fortnight later.

[Le Vieux]

Leave Le Mans alone!!!!!

Every year the entry is oversubscribed. If it ain't broke...........

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by diffuser

I'm sorry I have to say the same thing twice, but having LMP3 enter LeMans would be the death of it. LeMans and the LeMans Series are supposed to be the pinnacle of Sportscar racing. The lower classes - LMP3, GT3 and such are amateur and national series, entered mainly by people who have real life jobs and do this as a hobby. Granted, there are amateur drivers in the LMS and Lemans, but most of those are there only to bring in the money.

OK, let's take a look at teams with gentleman drivers in the the LMS-field:
LMP1:
- Chamberlain Synergy
- Charouz (Pickett)
- Pescarolo #17
- Rollcentre
- Saulnier Racing
- Lavaggi
LMP2:
- Barazi Epsilon
- Bruichladdich
- Horag
- RML
- Racing Box
( - Essex, Nielsen is pretty darn fast for a gentleman driver...)
- Trading Performance
- Saulnier
- Van Merksteijn
- WR/Salini
So roughly a third of the LMP1 teams and two thirds of the LMP2 teams have one or more gentleman driver in the cockpit.

If you let LMP3/GT3 compete with the big boys, you're one step away from the Nurburgring 24 hours, where people take part in their street cars. Having that at LeMans would be an utter disaster. Not only from the sporting point, but it would also turn off many fans who want to see professional racing.

As I said before, it would not be more unprofessional than it is at the moment. Sportscar racing always relied on wealthy individuals, and it's no difference today, nor will it be in the forseeable future.

Also, take a look at GT2: GT2 cars are raced in the International GT-Open by Pro/Am driver teams, yet in the FIA-GT or LMS the top-teams are all pro-lineups. So just because a certain car is raced by amateurs in one series, does not necessarily mean, that it can't be raced by pros in another series.

And finally: the top of the VdeV-field is getting more and more professional with teams bringing in pro-drivers like Pierre Kaffer and others.

[diffuser]

Whom do you define as an amteur at Rollcentre or Pescarolo? I did say that there are amatuer/gentleman/pay drivers in the LMS, although many of these have more motorsport expierience than any F1 driver and only the fact that they don't get paid marks them as not professional.
The same may be the cas for the top teams of lower classes, but still... why do you so desperatley want to bring slower cars into the big event? Do you want F3 cars in F1? They're just not needed and in my opinion they'd make the whole thing less interesting. I don't want to have the impression that I could compete at LeMans if only I had the money, I want to see real professionals - and maybe some very highly professional gentlemen if need be - fight it out and marvel at their skill.