Parting of the Ways?

[SebringMG]

Think the Gts have a place on the grid tbh - a grid full of protos would lose some of the variety for me - 2 proto classes and a single GT class would be perfect split 35 to 20

[Speed-King]

Sigh, once again I defend an idea that i don't necessarily support 100%...

Originally Posted by diffuser

Whom do you define as an amteur at Rollcentre or Pescarolo?

Martin Short at Rollcentre although I don't know how much driving he's been doing lately., Primat at Pescarolo.

I did say that there are amatuer/gentleman/pay drivers in the LMS, although many of these have more motorsport expierience than any F1 driver and only the fact that they don't get paid marks them as not professional.
The same may be the cas for the top teams of lower classes, but still... why do you so desperatley want to bring slower cars into the big event? Do you want F3 cars in F1? They're just not needed and in my opinion they'd make the whole thing less interesting.

Who says VdeV cars are slower? I just looked up the results for Jarama LMS and VdeV and the best race lap for a VdeV car is a 1.33.418, whereas the best lap time for a GT2 is a 1:36,373, so the VdeV car is 3 seconds per lap faster than a Ferrari 430!

[Aysedasi]

How do you define an amateur?

(As a matter of interest, really..... )

[old man]

I think that in the eyes of many, and it has been said here in the discussion, GT cars are there to fill the grid in LMS and ALMS because of the fact that until now it has been imposible to get a viable field of LMP cars. If the big GT teams feel they are not getting a commercial return they will find it difficult to get funding and finish up with only paying drivers. That does not detract neccessarily from the race spectacle but is, as diffuser says almost like putting F3 cars in F1.

As the LMP1 and 2 classes grow will the LMS and ACO field smaller and smaller numbers of GT cars is the question?

[diffuser]

Most commonly an amateur is understood to be someone who does something without pay or formal training. Conversely, a professional is someone who has received training in a particular area and who also makes a living from it. The word comes from French, and can be translated as "lover of", reflecting the amateur's motivation to work as a result of a love or passion for a particular activity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur

But then again, in racing it's propably a bit different...

@Speed King: I would not call Shortie or Primat amateurs. Primat calls himself a racing driver via his website and Martin Short has been racing for over a decade. He may be team owner too, but so was Jan Lammers with Racing for Holland.

Point B: LMP3 cars may be faster than GT2 cars but still... GT2 cars are faster than DP's and I dunno... couldn't we just drop the subject? We both have different opinions and neither one counts with the ACO

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by diffuser

Point B: LMP3 cars may be faster than GT2 cars but still... GT2 cars are faster than DP's and I dunno... couldn't we just drop the subject? We both have different opinions and neither one counts with the ACO

No problem here. As I said before I have no problem with the GT cars on the grid, I just said that LMP3s might be a viable option if the ACO wants to have prototype-only fields.

Here's what I would like to see:
An LMS with 8 races, the four classic 1000k races at Monza, Spa, Nürburgring and Silverstone with combined classes and four other races (maybe Barcelona, Norisring, Andersthorp, Dijon) as split events with 400k (shorter at Norisring) races for the protos and the GTs. No preselected spots on the grid. If the capacity of the track at the combined events + Le Mans is smaller than the number of entrants, let them duke it out in qualifying.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by old man

As the LMP1 and 2 classes grow will the LMS and ACO field smaller and smaller numbers of GT cars is the question?

They have this year.

I would hate to see the GT's dissappear. Le Mans has long been about variety look back at the 50's and 60's and you had 'prototyes' like the ASton DBR1 and Ferrari Testarossa and 'Gt's' such as MG's, healeys' etc

[diffuser]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Here's what I would like to see:
An LMS with 8 races, the four classic 1000k races at Monza, Spa, Nürburgring and Silverstone with combined classes and four other races (maybe Barcelona, Norisring, Andersthorp, Dijon) as split events with 400k (shorter at Norisring) races for the protos and the GTs. No preselected spots on the grid. If the capacity of the track at the combined events + Le Mans is smaller than the number of entrants, let them duke it out in qualifying.

400km races won't work, didn't work for the Group C cars. Sportscar fans found them too short and F1 fans found them too long.
Prequalifying costs time and money. A small team propably wouldn't attend a race if it didn't know it was actually being able to start. With that, you would reduce the grid to teams funded well enough to be able to cope with a DNQ. The same was the reason for the small schedule, the ACO wanted really large fields, so they made the championship go only 4 or 5 races. But I agree with you there, a larger schedule would be good, it would help boost the series' exposure.
Maybe the LMS should go down the road of the ALMS for a while and do support races for DTM and other popular national series. For a couple of seasons maybe. Although a 6-hour support race would be kinda silly... unless it starts saturday evening and goes into the night... and every spectator gets a free pillow

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by diffuser

400km races won't work, didn't work for the Group C cars. Sportscar fans found them too short and F1 fans found them too long.

WSC 3.5 failed for a lot of reasons, the race distance might have been one of those, but probably not the only one. It seems to work fine for the ALMS.

Prequalifying costs time and money. A small team propably wouldn't attend a race if it didn't know it was actually being able to start. With that, you would reduce the grid to teams funded well enough to be able to cope with a DNQ. The same was the reason for the small schedule, the ACO wanted really large fields, so they made the championship go only 4 or 5 races. But I agree with you there, a larger schedule would be good, it would help boost the series' exposure.

Probably/Maybe/Hopefully after a few races the teams would find out if they have a chance to prequalify or not and the number of cars entered would roughly be the same as the track capacities. And as I said that's just a what I would like to see, not what I think is realistic today. Right now the preselection still seems to be the way to go, but maybe there will be better days ahead.

Maybe the LMS should go down the road of the ALMS for a while and do support races for DTM and other popular national series. For a couple of seasons maybe. Although a 6-hour support race would be kinda silly... unless it starts saturday evening and goes into the night... and every spectator gets a free pillow

That's why I want shorter races. Without those the LMS can never be support for another series. I am by no means glued to the 400k figure. DRM worked fine with 100miles races. I would be fine with that as well. Balls-out prototype sprint racing, I wonder how long DTM would be the main-act and LMS the side-show....

@moderators: This is already going a lot OT, maybe you want to split it from the orginal thread?

[Nordic]

IMHO there is room for a couple of short sprint races in a season, (like the Norsring money races of the 80's) two seperate races would allow two drivers to take part, but the majority of the races should be 1000k or 6 hour.

[diffuser]

Norisring is a DTM fixture now, they'll never let that go. And PreQ would mean we'd never see that Lavaggi again! It's always nice to know who will be last, so you can give them an extra cheer

I think basically those racing formats like Prequalifying or money races just aren't "in" today... same with F1, everything in racing is very organized at the current time... if it weren't, people would propably want it to be. That's what's great about being a fan, you can always want the things you don't have.

Nevertheless, I too would love love to see a championship like that. With 35-45 Prototypes (LMP1 & LMP2 ), no GT's, because those have the FIA GT already. And then you have them together at Le Mans only, which would make that race a little more exclusive.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

@moderators: This is already going a lot OT, maybe you want to split it from the orginal thread?

Thanks for the heads-up on that - but personally I'm content to see what is an interesting, healthy and (I think) relevant debate continue on a little longer. At least I shouldn't have to worry about banning someone's ass for mentioning Hamilton or Alonso here......

[johntt]

Originally Posted by diffuser

400km races won't work, didn't work for the Group C cars. Sportscar fans found them too short and F1 fans found them too long.
Prequalifying costs time and money. A small team propably wouldn't attend a race if it didn't know it was actually being able to start. With that, you would reduce the grid to teams funded well enough to be able to cope with a DNQ. The same was the reason for the small schedule, the ACO wanted really large fields, so they made the championship go only 4 or 5 races. But I agree with you there, a larger schedule would be good, it would help boost the series' exposure.
Maybe the LMS should go down the road of the ALMS for a while and do support races for DTM and other popular national series. For a couple of seasons maybe. Although a 6-hour support race would be kinda silly... unless it starts saturday evening and goes into the night... and every spectator gets a free pillow

I think the LMS should consist of the four big 1000km races (Monza, Spa, Nurburgring and Silverstone) and then have some 2h45m races as well, maybe some on the Saturday afternoon of a DTM/WTCC race weekend (Mugello+Zandvoort with DTM and Anderstorp with the WTCC) and a 2h45 race at Donington with the BTCC as support.

[old man]

The object of the debate was to see if the split that I suspect is going to happen is real. The GT cars were brought into the LM24 to save the race and provide a viable number of entries. Now, it seems to me, they have done their job and the formula that the ACO have come up with will produce sufficient LMPs to run a viable race. The big GT manufacturers can have a piece of the action by selling their engines or either building their own car like Porsche or buying an off the peg chassis such as the Lola coupe so the GTs are not required any more

So where does that leave the GT guys? The Ratel organisation seems to me to have seen this coming and is working towards a viable alternative with a real World Series similar to the WTCC that has a rival 24 hour race (SPA), possibly 2 if they can get together with Daytona. The problem is that GT's are seen as grid fillers, even by many enthusiasts on this forum so how do the FIA GT championship organisers build their series to compete on a series basis with the ACO based series assuming that is based on LMPs

[Aysedasi]

But do the ACO want just LMPs? Although I agree with you why we had GTs in the first place (although there is of course much earlier precedent for them at LM), would the ACO really want to dump the GTs now?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by old man

The object of the debate was to see if the split that I suspect is going to happen is real. The GT cars were brought into the LM24 to save the race and provide a viable number of entries. Now, it seems to me, they have done their job and the formula that the ACO have come up with will produce sufficient LMPs to run a viable race. The big GT manufacturers can have a piece of the action by selling their engines or either building their own car like Porsche or buying an off the peg chassis such as the Lola coupe so the GTs are not required any more

If the ACO wants the ALMS to suceed as a part of the ACO franchise system, abandoning the GT class completely is out of question, as the ALMS can't survive with only prototypes on the grid.
The situation in Europe is different, nonetheless I don't think that the ACO will completely abandon GT racing. Having just one class of GT cars and a 2/3-1/3 (maybe even 3/4-1/4) ratio of protos and GTs is very well possible and so is a system where the GTs and protos race together only in selected rounds (Spa, Le Mans) and have their own races (on the same or other weekends) otherwise.

So where does that leave the GT guys? The Ratel organisation seems to me to have seen this coming and is working towards a viable alternative with a real World Series similar to the WTCC that has a rival 24 hour race (SPA), possibly 2 if they can get together with Daytona. The problem is that GT's are seen as grid fillers, even by many enthusiasts on this forum so how do the FIA GT championship organisers build their series to compete on a series basis with the ACO based series assuming that is based on LMPs

Ratels proposed system is -apart from Spa- based on 90 minute or 2hour sprint races, whereas the ACO's focus is on true endurance racing. I think just as now there will be teams who prefer the endurance format over the sprint races. Those teams will need a place to run their cars, especially with all national championships adopting a 2x1hr race format for GT3 cars. In the worst case the ACO can cash in on the entry fees of those teams, so there really is no reason why they should abandon the GTs altogether.

Cutting the GT fields in LMS and LM down: yes
Separate races for LMPs and GTs: also yes
Abandoning GTs altogether: no.

[diffuser]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But do the ACO want just LMPs? Although I agree with you why we had GTs in the first place (although there is of course much earlier precedent for them at LM), would the ACO really want to dump the GTs now?

Not now, because then we'd be back to small fields at LeMans. But if they can get a full field of quality Prototypes they certainly will, because after all, LeMans has always been primarily about Prototype racing. Without LM, there would not be such a thing as a sports prototype.

Another thing that just struck me... how many manufacturers/factory teams are there in LMP today? And how many in GT? Protos are definitley back on the rise.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by diffuser

Another thing that just struck me... how many manufacturers/factory teams are there in LMP today? And how many in GT? Protos are definitley back on the rise.

LMP:
Audi
Peugeot
Acura
Porsche
Aston
Mazda
MG(RML received afaik a cash-infusion from the Chinese owners)

GT:
Corvette
Aston
Porsche
Ferrari
Maserati (2008 might be their last year)
Spyker
Saleen*

*not much factory support as far as I know nowadays.

I agree, it looks good for prototype racing at the moment.

[Purist]

Diffuser, remember that Le Mans started out as just having GTs really. I would say that the first "prototypes" popped up in the 1950s: the Mercedes 300SL Coupe, Ferrari 860 Monza, Jaguar D-Type, and Aston Martin DBR1 would be prime examples.

I think you want to keep the GTs, and run them alongside the prototypes as a general rule. The traffic aspect is an important aspect of the races, and having that variety on the grid is great. Also, I think you will be VERY hard-pressed to pull together 55 quality prototypes at the best of times. And when you suddenly have a downturn in entries is not the moment you want to realize you don't have established GT classes to pick up the slack.

I'm not sure there ever was a point when GTs were completely absent from Le Mans. I know a Porsche 961 (racing version of the 959) won the GT class at Le Mans in 1986 or '87. The Jaguar XJ220C won the GT category in 1993 (yes, it was disqualified on a technicality).

I might also mention that GT is the only place we're likely to see the best known rivalry in sportscar unfold: Porsche versus Ferrari. Ferrari has only produced customer cars since 1973, and aside from the 333SP (long gone now), they have all been GTs.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm not sure there ever was a point when GTs were completely absent from Le Mans. I know a Porsche 961 (racing version of the 959) won the GT class at Le Mans in 1986 or '87. The Jaguar XJ220C won the GT category in 1993 (yes, it was disqualified on a technicality).

The 4WD 961 ran in GTX in 86 - and was the only entrant in the class, I think.....

Porsche #180

[Speed-King]

Just looked it up: 1987 through 1992 were GT-free...and 86 had the Porsche 961 in GTX and a lone BMW M1 in Group B...

[Aysedasi]

The same 961 ran in IMSA (GTP?) in 87.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The same 961 ran in IMSA (GTP?) in 87.

Ah, true. I just read IMSA and Mazda 757 a bit above and thought that this would only mean GTP cars.

[dj4monie]

If a split were to happen, I believe in a downturn, the ACO would be in big trouble. It could happen again and odds are it will happen again, its in cycles when companies haven gotten what they wanted from racing the series and the 24hours that they want to do other things and need to prioritize budgets.

There will always be "GT" racing as its less expensive and mostly depends on a company making a competitive production car to start with. So in that sense the FIA GT series even with Ratel running it will always WORK. He had to rebuild from the implosion of the GT1-quasi-Prototype cars, FIA canceled SWC and then disconnected itself from WTCC.

FIA GT is still here and he wants to remain viable in a market flooded with competition for a fan's dollar and eye balls.

The ALMS could remain such as it is and not really effect much. Afterall, IMSA was doing just fine in the 70's and 80's and most of the 90's until the bottom fell out of it, enter Andy Evans....

So really if there was a "split" you would still have high entries at Le Mans and I feel GT cars have a place there. Otherwise you'll end up with a field of 30-35 cars and about 20 closed doors along the pit straight on average = NOT GOOD.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

In the LMS you will never have many more than 30-35 prototypes, so a quality GT field is needed for 1000k races.

Why ~45-50 gids are needed for LMS rounds? Not quantity over quality. WSC in its glory years had 30-40 proto grids.

For me 2 LMP classes and one GT class sounds best too. Just feels stupid to have two weak classes when you could have one stronger. Imho one major problem with GT classes is that you just know that all the best teams are not there competing together (Le Mans too excluding the factory teams) because the GT teams are so split between FIA GT, ALMS and LMS. It's hard to get excited because of this.

Afaik ACO wants to keep the "variety" and the all four classes. Manufacturers wants to go GT2 and have one class... but what does SRO want?

Even more crappy GT grids coming in LMS/ALMS when/if FIA GT gets the World Championship mandate? The WC thing itself is imho great. And if GT2 and GT1 ever merges, I wonder would FIA GT still keep it's "no factory teams" policy?

.