[Driver] Vettel vs Webber: Round 2

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by AussieTimmeh

They are near but not on the white line when the collision occured. There was enough room.

Watch the incar footage from Vettel's car. He had his wheels on the white line when he made the move to pass. The actual point of contact was the result of Vettel moving in on Webber.

My point is, Webber should have yielded a bit more easily to his teammate.

[MikeManNZ]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

My point is, Webber should have yielded a bit more easily to his teammate.

Why?

You can be sure that Vettel would not have done so if the positions were reversed. I am fairly sure that in the SAME position LH/JB or FM/FA would not have either.

It was a wildly optimistic pass that would only have been possible because the team asked Webber to turn down the engine for "Fuel Conservation" reasons.

Did the team come out and say that Vettel was on a higher fuel setting?

No because then MW would have been asking why over the radio which is a question that the team could not or would not answer.

It is standard practice to keep a driver in the loop if the other driver has different settings to prevent this sort of thing happening, but that requires a team that is fair with the orders and Red Bull have a Ferrari'ish feel in this area.

[Born Racer]

I maintain my view from repeated replays that Webber did not owe it to Vettel to yield to him more. If he had moved to the right, Vettel would have just moved more to the right himself to fill that space, thus giving him something closer approaching the optimum turn-in point for the left-hander. As it was, he left Vettel the required car and a tiny bit's width, and Vettel made that small steering increment that put himself into the side of Webber.

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Watch the incar footage from Vettel's car. He had his wheels on the white line when he made the move to pass. The actual point of contact was the result of Vettel moving in on Webber.

My point is, Webber should have yielded a bit more easily to his teammate.

I did just watch it, I've seen it a thousand times on every news channel since I saw it live last night.

Vettel was off the white line by the time the collision occured, as I stated and as the photos prove. That means that Webber left enough room for him - full stop. At the point of the first photo I posted, Vettel could have continued straight ahead, off the white lines, no collision.

If Vettel chose to move right for an even greater chunk, that's his mistake.

You personally think that Webber could have given him more room, that's ok. Everyone has an opinion. But don't try to make out that Vettel had to cause the collision to stay on the track because that is not fact.

[mac]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Watch the incar footage from Vettel's car. He had his wheels on the white line when he made the move to pass. The actual point of contact was the result of Vettel moving in on Webber.

My point is, Webber should have yielded a bit more easily to his teammate.

Sorry, but I think I'll side with all the other drivers, the commentators (that aren't nuts - Eddie), and the entire F1 paddock (that isn't Horner or Marko).

Webber picked his line and stuck to it - textbook defending.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by AussieTimmeh

I did just watch it, I've seen it a thousand times on every news channel since I saw it live last night.

Vettel was off the white line by the time the collision occured, as I stated and as the photos prove. That means that Webber left enough room for him - full stop. At the point of the first photo I posted, Vettel could have continued straight ahead, off the white lines, no collision.

If Vettel chose to move right for an even greater chunk, that's his mistake.

You personally think that Webber could have given him more room, that's ok. Everyone has an opinion. But don't try to make out that Vettel had to cause the collision to stay on the track because that is not fact.

So what's the outside of the track for? Webber was completely on the wrong side of the track to negotiate the corner... if Webber was not aggressively defending his line.

Maybe you'd like to view your own images to see how much room Webber had on the outside of the track? Webber realised his teammate had him but he refused to move to avoid collision. That is risk based racing. Webber is lucky to benefit from the incident and increase his lead in the championship. But it could also have ended up the other way... and you might be whinging that Webber was 'unlucky' through no fault of his own... again.

Remember, Hamilton and Button gave each other racing room at the same circuit. They swapped positions without defending as aggressively as needed to.

[AussieTimmeh]

Photo 1: Vettel just in front of Mark, before the collision.


Photo 2: Point of collision, Vettel reacts to the car kicking sideways.


Photo 3: It's all over.

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

So what's the outside of the track for? Webber was completely on the wrong side of the track to negotiate the corner... if Webber was not aggressively defending his line.

Of course he was defending!

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Webber realised his teammate had him but he refused to move to avoid collision. That is risk based racing.

Webber held his line. It's the responsibility of the overtaking car to avoid an accident. Remember, swerving when defending is bad. So Webber did the right thing! Look at the onboard pictures on Vettels car to see how far he moved across before they hit. Remember, even you pointed out that he started on the white line. He almost looks to be halfway across the track when they touch.

Anyhow, believe what you want. I'm with the millions of people on the side of good and not evil!

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by mac

I'm intrigued by these conspiracy theories and suggestions that Webber was asked to turn down his engine to save fuel.

Remembering that refuelling is banned, after his second stop he certainly had a potent enough fuel setting to reel off a series of very quick lap times.

Admittedly he had low fuel and new tyres, but if fuel was such an issue I would find it hard to believe he was in a position to be banging in such times...

So... why was he asked to slow down so far out from the end of the race?

that's a very good question.

I think there's little doubt that Vettel is the favoured driver in the team. By favoured i dont mean mechanically, but he's just looked upon more fondly, and seen as a greater asset to the team's future than Mark. so if they did have a preference for who they wanted to win a championship, i'm sure it would be Vettel.

With this in mind, their favoured son, has been complaining most of this season about getting the short end of the stick, suggesting that he is being let down by the team and his car. Feeling hard done by. And to some degree, he has been.

The team (well, Horner specifically) seems to be pandering to him, almost apologetically. Maybe it's management, but i think Horner realises that Seb is not in a very good headspace at the moment, and this was a little opportunity to give him a little 'bump' to let him know the team was behind him, and appease his recent discontent.

It is hard to see it as anything other than a deliberate attempt to manipulate Mark and allow Seb an easy(er) pass.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by mac

Sorry, but I think I'll side with all the other drivers, the commentators (that aren't nuts - Eddie), and the entire F1 paddock (that isn't Horner or Marko).

Webber picked his line and stuck to it - textbook defending.

Except when you are teammates.

It doesn't even matter what you think. RBR reserves the right to hold their opinion - and I happen to agree with Marko's view 100%. The cars didn't need to collide... and Webber was vulnerable.

The fact that Vettel moved over and caused the collision is beside the point, IMHO. The real issue began before the contact.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by AussieTimmeh

Of course he was defending!

Anyhow, believe what you want. I'm with the millions of people on the side of good and not evil!

I'm viewing the incident, not as a fanboy, like your good self.

Webber has done a disservice to himself and his team and sponsors... unless his team forgives him. That's all I'm trying to say.

If they were on different teams, I'd be siding with Webber in my argument. But the team dynamics are completely different if your contract says "don't take your teammate out"... or words to the effect. And Webber didn't need to defend as aggressively - look at how far offline he is to positioning his car for the corner. Webber even stated in the post race conference that Vettel got a run on him out of the corner...

If I were a team manager, I'd be siding slightly with Vettel as well.

[djb]

the real issue is that I am glad that Webber did not move over more, because that would have sent the wrong message. Vettel now knows that he cant expect Webber to scurry out of his way---a very important message for Webber to give and I am sure he doesnt regret it.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by djb

the real issue is that I am glad that Webber did not move over more, because that would have sent the wrong message. Vettel now knows that he cant expect Webber to scurry out of his way---a very important message for Webber to give and I am sure he doesnt regret it.

That I agree with. It's like Webber realised his mistake the first time in Malaysia when he let Vettel through to the first corner because he couldn't see him.

[MikeManNZ]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Except when you are teammates.

It doesn't even matter what you think. RBR reserves the right to hold their opinion - and I happen to agree with Marko's view 100%. The cars didn't need to collide... and Webber was vulnerable.

The fact that Vettel moved over and caused the collision is beside the point, IMHO. The real issue began before the contact.

We all know that the trick in F1 is not catching another, it is passing that counts.

It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the passing driver to make sure they have enough room and getting squeezed is part of putting the car there.

This is not Ferrari in the late 1990's/Early 2000's with Schumi and a seat filler (Sorry RB but thats the truth), RBR have two top flight drivers who are very equal and of course they are going to fight for points.

Just like the Senna/Prost pairing these two are not giving each other an inch and neither should they. That means that a pass has to be 100% on before you try it unless you want what Vettel got.

If Lewis had put his car there on Vettel would Vettel have moved over and given him more room? I think not!

At the end of the day it was a racing incident but blaming Webber is just fantasy.

Team orders are banned for a reason and if RBR told Webber to turn down his engine for no reason but to let Vettel through then they deserve a penalty, maybe losing all constructors points is a good way to do it, ohhh thats right RBR not McLaren

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I'm viewing the incident, not as a fanboy, like your good self.

No need to get personal and call names just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion.

If you knew anything about me, you'd have known I am a big Vettel fan just like I am a Webber fan, but I think he screwed up here.

I backed up my opinion with evidence on why I hold that opinion. Yours isn't the only opinion on here, and everyone who doesn't agree isn't instantly a Webber 'fanboy'.

[Born Racer]

Looks about right to me:

Q: (Livio Oricchio – O Estado de Sao Paulo) Mark, was your strategy to keep Vettel inside, not to make him brake before and you keep your position, even if you brake late, he would go straight?
MW: It wasn’t my plan to get him on the inside but he got there and I thought OK, I would just stay in the middle, as straight as I can, to make his line as tight as possible into the next corner obviously. And once we got to the braking point, he was obviously in a very strong position, but before we got there he came across to the right and I couldn’t react fast enough, because I wasn’t at all expecting that at that point, and that’s why it happened so fast and there was contact.

Looks right to me.

Yeah, and let's keep the "fanboy" stuff out.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by MikeManNZ

It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the passing driver to make sure they have enough room and getting squeezed is part of putting the car there.

Well, in this case the passing driver did have enough room but he messed it up later on in the move. I would add that more generally, it is the responsibility of both drivers to maintain room- as you say, the passing driver to check there is room, and the defending driver to leave enough.

[David Brand]

I see this as Vettels fault. Webber was aggressive and could have allowed Vettel more room, but that didn't cause the contact.

Vettel's veering right caused the collision, plain and simple. Webber held on to his line, as he is entitled to do.

If the team really has an agenda in all of this, it's not going to make Webber want to sign any contracts with them...

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I'm viewing the incident, not as a fanboy, like your good self.

Webber has done a disservice to himself and his team and sponsors... unless his team forgives him. That's all I'm trying to say.

If they were on different teams, I'd be siding with Webber in my argument. But the team dynamics are completely different if your contract says "don't take your teammate out"... or words to the effect. And Webber didn't need to defend as aggressively - look at how far offline he is to positioning his car for the corner. Webber even stated in the post race conference that Vettel got a run on him out of the corner...

If I were a team manager, I'd be siding slightly with Vettel as well.

What annoys me is that this give each other room. On the exit of the previous corner Webber was already hogging the inside line and you see Vettel dart to the outside then flick it back to the inside. There was never going to be enough room and Webber had left the door open for Vettel on the outside. Vettel chose the impossible inside move and turned the whole situation into a lottery dip. Webber has shown too much respect to Vettel and Vettel exploits it with putting him to the sword.

I am still smarting about Vettel running last in quali...cheeky. Then speaking to a mate last night....he had it 1000% right. Vettel will put Webber to the sword as he think in a game of chicken which will see the cars make contact Webber will flinch first in the interest of the team. Well i am with Webber on this one. He had to set the record straight getting to the halfway season mark.

If Vettel wants to beat Mark he will have to do it in quali or cleanly in the race. That means if a guy has the inside line covered and is leaving you the outside of the track then you dont go inside and try to drive him off the road with a cut up before the braking area.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by MikeManNZ

We all know that the trick in F1 is not catching another, it is passing that counts.

It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the passing driver to make sure they have enough room and getting squeezed is part of putting the car there.

This is not Ferrari in the late 1990's/Early 2000's with Schumi and a seat filler (Sorry RB but thats the truth), RBR have two top flight drivers who are very equal and of course they are going to fight for points.

Just like the Senna/Prost pairing these two are not giving each other an inch and neither should they. That means that a pass has to be 100% on before you try it unless you want what Vettel got.

If Lewis had put his car there on Vettel would Vettel have moved over and given him more room? I think not!

At the end of the day it was a racing incident but blaming Webber is just fantasy.

Team orders are banned for a reason and if RBR told Webber to turn down his engine for no reason but to let Vettel through then they deserve a penalty, maybe losing all constructors points is a good way to do it, ohhh thats right RBR not McLaren

Button could also have squeezed out Hamilton... but gave him plenty of racing room. Had they not been teammates... who knows but I'd be furious with Button if he'd taken out Hamilton.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

But the team dynamics are completely different if your contract says "don't take your teammate out"... or words to the effect

I'm not sure a contract would say that as such.

Originally Posted by SSbaby

If I were a team manager, I'd be siding slightly with Vettel as well.

The impartial team boss Martin Whitmarsh seemed to side with Webber somewhat at least when he pointed out that he wouldn't have been cuddling the driver like some of the Red Bull pitwall crew did Vettel, in an interview with the BBC.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by AussieTimmeh

No need to get personal and call names just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion.

If you knew anything about me, you'd have known I am a big Vettel fan just like I am a Webber fan, but I think he screwed up here.

I backed up my opinion with evidence on why I hold that opinion. Yours isn't the only opinion on here, and everyone who doesn't agree isn't instantly a Webber 'fanboy'.

Actually, it would be good if you avoided making "good and evil" comments in regards to your discussion. That way you avoid being needlessly labeled.

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Actually, it would be good if you avoided making "good and evil" comments in regards to your discussion. That way you avoid being needlessly labeled.

This thread is full of banter about who is better, Webber or Vettel. The laughing smiley should have tipped you off that it was a comment in humour. Then you got personal about it because I did not agree with your opinion and had expressed my own.

I didn't take your opinion personally, you shouldn't either. That is all I have to say about it, feel free to have the last say.

I, for one, am looking forward to Montreal with great interest in how the RBR dynamics will play out.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by AussieTimmeh

This thread is full of banter about who is better, Webber or Vettel. The laughing smiley should have tipped you off that it was a comment in humour. Then you got personal about it because I did not agree with your opinion and had expressed my own.

I think you need to relax a bit more. I didn't take your opinion personally, you shouldn't either. That is all I have to say about it, feel free to have the last say.

I, for one, am looking forward to Montreal with great interest in how the RBR dynamics will play out.

We're mates. It's all good.

I am really trying to view the incident with an open mind... but finding it's not that clear cut. At least I can see Eddie Jordan's view. I was even surprised to learn (from reading this forum) that some of RBR's team members apportioned blame on the incident to Webber.

As you say, bring on Montreal.

[Ultimo]

Alright lads, take it down a notch. The fanboy label can often start rage, so maybe before sitting down to post again, keep in mind: you are talking to a stranger on the internet who you almost certainly will never meet. What is the point of getting angry or your nose bent outta joint? It doesn't really matter, it's just a silly forum on a silly internet.

Chill, take a deep breath, try to analyze your own biases and prejudices before yo post again, and move on.

EDIT: See? You beat me to it!

Happy time!