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Old 24 Sep 2017, 11:06 (Ref:3769548)   #31
broadrun96
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broadrun96 is going for a new lap record!broadrun96 is going for a new lap record!broadrun96 is going for a new lap record!broadrun96 is going for a new lap record!broadrun96 is going for a new lap record!broadrun96 is going for a new lap record!
Holy crap, is there a race or a debate about who thinks which tires and which chassis would be an old P1 car? That has NOTHING to do with an actual race event, if you want to stroke your egos about how you're smarter about what could be, make a thread and we'll dutifully ignore it.

News flash, they are different cars and you can't always go faster. You run out of time and skill at some point, please think even a little . Back to the non-sportscar threads where discussion actually makes sense and the horses are allowed to die in peace.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 11:07 (Ref:3769549)   #32
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Originally Posted by Purist View Post
Except it's not just DPI, it's DPI/LMP2; so, "apples" are still on the signage.

It's not unreasonable to think there will be empirical improvement in pace over 10-12-15-18 years. Furthermore, they're the same type of car running to the same basic specs (at least the straight LMP2s are), so it's reasonable to see them running similar pace to the same machinery elsewhere.

The difference, of two seconds or more, comes off as strange. Also, with the IMSA LMP2s being slower, it makes the teams here look bad by comparison.
Except no, they are NOT the same basic specs. Unless you think tires are somehow not an important pert of the spec of the car. Then Michelin should just pack it up cause hey, tires are just those round things so grab whatever you find lying around.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 11:35 (Ref:3769554)   #33
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I don't understand the obsession with speed. Yeah the cars aren't faster, but that's because if you make them faster you need to start butchering the circuits. The rules are different and designed to keep the cars slower. If you used modern tech to build to the old rules, they'd be faster. Lap times are not always an indicator of progression.

Of course you can compare Apples and Oranges. They're both fruit. This is more like comparing tigers to velociraptors. They're both animals, but one is extinct and not relevant anymore.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 12:43 (Ref:3769568)   #34
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LMP900s and the big engine LMP1s might be basically gone, but the current cars evolved from them.

Bigger issue is the tires that are being used. If IMSA were doing this to limit speeds, then why ditch Continental after next season for Michelin who will probably make better tires?

Either Michelin are shoving more money into Jim France's and Don Panoz's and other IMSA bigwigs' pockets, than Conti was, or they maybe know something we don't, be it the future of DPI at LM, the possibility of a split, higher performance spec or maybe open tire DPI class and a spec tire LMP2 class, or they just felt it was time for a change.

Just disappointed that 15-20 years or car development is held back by a relatively junk spec tire.

And though I think that records to a degree are made to be broken, I also question when is faster too fast. How fast do we want these cars to go or what sacrifices are we willing to make? Do we want faster cars with butchered tracks, or tracks with minimal modifications and retain their character but with cars that have the edge taken off of them? I'd vote for cars to have the edge taken off of them to a degree.

For instance, LM wouldn't be making so many changes to their track if the cars were still running 3:25s or lower for the top class. Also, breaking speed records is fine, but does it necessarily make the racing better?
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 12:49 (Ref:3769570)   #35
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Honest question here - other than making fun of the Continentals, and the issues they've had at Daytona...does it make a difference? Does it actually matter that the cars are not lapping faster? Providing the tyres actually work (which was the real problem with the Continentals, not the overall speed), does anyone REALLY care? We all pointed out that GTLM and GTD produce amazing racing, and GTE in ELMS right now is producing an awesome race with only 6 cars. Quite often, the slower cars produce BETTER racing. So why are we so obsessed with the overall speed of these cars?
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 13:30 (Ref:3769575)   #36
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That's kinda my point. Does going faster necessarily make for better racing? I doubt it. Having closely matched cars with different strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons, makes for good racing, irrespective of speed.

I'm not a fan of spec tires in road racing (though many series do opt for such), and I'd rather see tire technology move forward. But at the same time, the speeds that the cars do also have to make sense. I personally don't think it makes sense for GTE cars (formerly GT2) running borderline GT1 times, as well as the fact that I think that really exotic cars should be in a GT1-like class.

I'd like to see LMP1 in the WEC slowed down to basically 2007 or 2011-13 times, LMP2 to like 3:35 or 3:40, and GTE to 3:55-4:00 at LM. But that's just how I'd like to see things. Mind you, I'd also like to see traction control done away with and some of the aero stuff on LMPs and even GT cars reigned in a bit.

All of this stuff would probably make for interesting discussion in a thread dedicated to it or one of the future rules threads. All I was doing was providing an observation and my opinions on it.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 16:59 (Ref:3769598)   #37
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RACE DAY!

Race start 2:05PM Local Time, 5:05pm EST!!!
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 17:18 (Ref:3769601)   #38
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Hopefully everyone can put on a good race today. I'll try and watch it later today if I get back up early enough after a nap.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 17:23 (Ref:3769603)   #39
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Lap times provide a hard number, and something that at least seems more non-subjective. People ask why we have these debates. Well, this is the way many try to avoid them, by using straight-up numbers comparisons.

Trying to say, "This is better racing", is too individual and subjective to get traction with others. It leads to unsatisfying discussion oftentimes, because it just doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

And no, with the FIA/FIM involved, I think most of the noticeable changes at Le Mans would have been made anyway.

Speed is partly a compensation. We don't get as much in the way of the top-line, performance road cars in GT racing anymore. The new Grade 1 tracks aren't as satisfying either. So, we want the cars to go faster to make up for at least some of that. And let's be honest, if we took loads of downforce off and did other things to slow them down, it's not like the old tracks or existing tracks like how they used to be will ever be brought back. You might make F1 back into 1.5-liter torpedoes (like 1961-65), but a track that makes that interesting, like Clermont-Ferrand, is never coming back.

Furthermore, it just gets messy. If you slow down LMP1, LMP2, and GTE, then you need to slow down GT3, GT4, TCR, etc. And yes, we're human, and to a great many humans, foolish though some might think it, bigger, faster, whatever-er is simply perceived as "better", and that's not magically going away anytime soon.

Hope that clears some things up, and we've had a race today at Spa, and one coming up at Laguna Seca. I'm good with anybody winnning, so long as it's not Cadillac, or at least not the #10.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 18:13 (Ref:3769607)   #40
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
I don't understand the obsession with speed. Yeah the cars aren't faster, but that's because if you make them faster you need to start butchering the circuits. The rules are different and designed to keep the cars slower. If you used modern tech to build to the old rules, they'd be faster. Lap times are not always an indicator of progression.

Of course you can compare Apples and Oranges. They're both fruit. This is more like comparing tigers to velociraptors. They're both animals, but one is extinct and not relevant anymore.
Laguna Seca has remained mostly the same. If anything the cars are safer now than they were nearly 10 years ago when record laps were being set, on the same track(s). I think the races with the Acura, Porsche and Audi were really good racing too, btw. So who says we can't have both?

I'm still looking forward to the race. I think people want to see faster cars because they know what these ones are capable of. And speed awe's people. GTE is faster than ever, but prototype isn't. And were seeing one car dominate in a bop formula, which isn't supposed to happen. That's kind of a turn off. Credit to WTR though!
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 18:21 (Ref:3769609)   #41
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Apologies all, I didn't mean to drag the thread into another this vs that debate. The slower lap times of the modern cars also don't mean that I hate the current cars. I was responding to the posts of lap comparisons (and what I felt was a misunderstanding) of how close a 6 second gap was when you're average speed is 103+ mph. At those speeds and higher 6 seconds is a long time. But yes onto race day!

Weather is great, no fog here today. I'm posted up here near Vendor Island where all the sound gets echoed and trapped off the surrounding hills. It's glorious. I must say out of all the turbo motors, the Ford is the loudest. Almost as if it had no turbo.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 19:39 (Ref:3769619)   #42
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Broadrun, at the end of the day, especially if you're not waist-deep in it like us, it's a Ligier JS P217 in WEC and in IMSA. So, why is the one so much faster or slower than the other? At a very basic level, it "feels wrong", and so long as that disconnect is there, it interferes with enjoyment to some degree.

You also have to factor in the feeling that regulators will take a mile in safety if we give them even an inch in speed. Furthermore, people routinely do 90-95 mph on the Interstate (regardless of legality), so the threshold for a level of speed that sounds impressive to people is higher than it used to be.

As TF110 points out, you can have excellent racing with fast cars. The 2007-08 races at Mosport stick out to me. The slicing through the GTs that the P1s and P2s were doing was thrilling. And actually, it was the LACK of paved run-off, the fact that you could SEE the grass, the final margin, RIGHT THERE that heightened the exhilaration to such a visceral level.

And a sense of artificiality is introduced when you KNOW the exact same cars that are on-track could go faster; it can bring in unpleasant thoughts of manipulation and even fixing. There's a reason we don't like BoP either. On the other hand, it can make every lap record feel that much better; it feels good, like the teams got one over on them despite the rules' makers best efforts to slow them down.

Sorry, but I thought it was worth trying to explain a little better what's going on and why these discussions crop up.

It looks like the #85 is a little too far off the pace, for whatever reason, so if not them, I hope ESM gets another one, or maybe one of the standard Ligiers gets it. I REALLY hope Risi can get a win. In GTD, I don't have a stand-out favorite, but I'd like to see a Mercedes win.

Finally, a note on Laguna Seca's history. For the ALMS years up to now, the track has remained unchanged. However, the current configuration dates back only to 1996. Prior to that, Turn 11 was closer to Turn 1 while Turn 10 was farther from Turn 9, and both took drivers/riders through a larger degree of rotation. So, the current layout is 2.238 miles and the 1988-95 layout was 2.214 miles. The original, which didn't have the hairpin and "infield" section, was just 1.9 miles, and pretty darn quick overall. I don't dislike the current version, but I do wish the original was still able to be used.

Last edited by Purist; 24 Sep 2017 at 20:01.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 20:05 (Ref:3769621)   #43
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imsa.com stream for the race:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyxEqeSYtt0
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 22:00 (Ref:3769631)   #44
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Cheers deggis.

I'll leave the obvious topical comment at the door for this one.
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Old 24 Sep 2017, 22:13 (Ref:3769632)   #45
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Starfish Primer should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridStarfish Primer should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridStarfish Primer should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
So, the stock Ligier P2 is faster than the Ligier Nissan DPi?
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