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Old 11 Oct 2017, 03:33 (Ref:3773556)   #31
sizzle
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sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Just because a driver is good or had some wins doesn't mean he automatically should have won the drivers championship. Very few people in the history of mankind have won GP's, let along have that extra brilliance to win a championship. You have to (usually - some exceptions) be special, great to win it. Most drivers who 'deserved' to win the world championship did so with very few exceptions.

Coulthard - no, couldn't beat Mika or Kimi and was prone to too many off days and mistakes. Never looked like winning the championship in all his years there and had a competitive car for most of it.

Berger - no, won 3 races with McLaren (first one gifted to him by Senna after 2 years winless) during when Senna won 2 championships and a host of races. Good on his day - which was only every so often but never a world beater. Also had access to competitive cars more often than not.

Alesi - no, was temperamental. He was described as 'mercurial' for a reason. Didn't exactly put Berger away either. Wouldn't have had the brain to put a championship together. A disillusioned Prost, past his best still put Alesi well and truly away in 91.

Barrichello - no, was murdered by Schumacher, regardless of the way the team was set up. Schumacher usually was well ahead so that it didn't matter. If RB was good enough, he would have been tucked up behind MS a lot. Had his measure sometimes but that's not enough.

Webber - no, Vettel was better in the same car and by a lot over their seasons together. Blown diffuser issues or not, them's the facts. Possibly if he's had a better car earlier in his career, may have developed a more winning habit? Regardless, he was never an Alonso/Lewis/Seb/Kimi (once upon a time) though, they being the best of his main era.

Note the drivers I'm comparing the above guys against which stops them from being in this bracket - they were being beaten by the best, the chosen few special talents.

All the guys above were good, in the same way Martin Brundle was good - easily good enough to win races in the right machinery but a world championship? Qualifying aside, Brundle gave Schumacher a good run in the races in 02. MS only won one race on 02 so the car was only picking up the scraps from the Williams domination and McLaren leftovers.

I also think (and not intending to be cruel) that drivers who were killed early in their career kind of don't count in an argument like this. There's not enough evidence to say they would have been champions. Stefano Modena looked great in F3 and 3000 for example. Had he been lost to F1 in some way, people would have listed him here.

Moss for example had a largely full career and gave it a bloody good go, this is the type of driver we should be talking about. The fact he didn't win it doesn't diminish his brilliance. Bellof and Brise weren't around long enough unfortunately to say if they would have been or not. Bellof actually had a flaw that perhaps contributed to him being killed - no other world champ had a bravery bordering on a death wish - you can't win a world championship driving without due care for ones own safety in the way Bellof (and Gilles) did.

Kubica could easily be in this bracket but again we'll never know (or we might depending on what Williams do). Kubica was a far better prospect than any of the guys listed above in my 'no' camp. He was a genuinely special driver.

I think of Bellof, Brise etc. as great lost talents sure but future world champs is a bit of a stretch, lots of ifs and buts to overcome.

There are really very few drivers who didn't win the world championship but should have.
That is a pretty good summation.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 07:29 (Ref:3773579)   #32
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chunterer has a real shot at the championship!chunterer has a real shot at the championship!chunterer has a real shot at the championship!chunterer has a real shot at the championship!chunterer has a real shot at the championship!
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I don't get the fascination for Kubica.

He was not impressive in junior formulae.

He was roundly beaten by Heidfeld with the exception of Canada in 2008; a race gifted to him when Hamilton drove into the back of Raikkonen and Ferrari messed up Massa's refueling stop.

WDC! You have to be kidding.

Enlighten me please.
We were clearly looking at 2 different drivers.

Bob Kub was clearly on an upward trajectory.

Had he actually joined Ferrari the last few yesrs could have been very different for Kimi, Alonso and Vettel.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3773583)   #33
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I think one has to look at actual performance in Formula 1 rather than rely mainly on potential , which quickly ends up as speculation . And many drivers have been great in F3 for example but not carried through in F1- Dave Walker, Jan Magnussen and many , many others .

So Pryce , Williamson, Brise - who knows ? Too brief a career to know - my guess only Brise had the killer instinct.

Amon- no - too temperamental and lacked the mental strength of a Lauda or Stewart

Peterson and Villeneuve - nope.Feted for their press on style but tactical and not strategic drivers .

Watson , Arnoux - brilliant on their day but never consistently top drawer. And I'd put Regazzoni, Coulthard and Montoya here too .

Gurney - no. Too many other things on his plate- very much the renaissance man

Lots of nearly men like Siffert, Rodriguez , Reutemann, Lafitte et al

So my candidates are - the most obvious is MOSS of course, but very closely followed by ICKX (who was super smart,staggeringly quick and unflappable . But somehow lost his mojo by 73/4 - occasional flashes of brilliance but he looked invincible in 70 )

My wild card , but based on very few F1 drives - the multi talented VIC ELFORD
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 08:11 (Ref:3773586)   #34
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Lol

You turn away Gilles, Ronnie and a few others who actually could have won championships driving in the ways you says they cant, but did not, mainly because of a sense of duty and team play.

Yet you pick a guy who only had one shot and blew it!

I do wonder about some peoples perceptions of what it takes to win a title or be a great I really do.

Do you like sportscars by any chance, that may explain the Ickx infatuation? Which is fair enough
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 09:54 (Ref:3773613)   #35
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
People easily dismiss Gilles as not having the nous to be champion. But analysis of some of his races shows he had the racing brain to do it. Think Jarama 81. Yes it was hard to pass at Jarama, but one small mistake and he would lost the lead. In the race before at Monaco, he didn't put up much of a fight against Jonesy as he knew his brakes were marginal and as a result he was able to attack back at the end. In his debut race at Silverstone he pulled into a pits when his engine temperature went too high. Even though it was found to be a faulty meter, he came in because he didn't want to be remembered as the irresponsible rookie who didn't pay attention to his equipment. There are other examples as well
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 10:05 (Ref:3773616)   #36
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ickx finished runner up in the WDC several times. There is a statistical reason to mention him in this thread. My memories of F1 start in 1976, so I cant really comment much more on him.

It is actually quite hard to come up with an utterly compelling argument for many drivers - Moss aside.

For example: If Ross Brawn had not rescued the old Honda team and given Button a drive, then Buttons F1 career would quite possibly have been over. Then someone might have put his name forward in this thread, and they probably would have been shot down in flames by some posters who would be pointing out his terrible season in the Benetton.

There is an argument that the cream will rise to the top. But there is also that random element / fate etc. If Ross Brawn put a young inexperienced driver in the car instead, then Rubens might have won the WDC instead of Button.

If / buts / maybes.

I like this thread, and it is good to hear peoples opinions about those who did not quite make it.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 11:31 (Ref:3773627)   #37
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Ickx finished runner up in the WDC several times. There is a statistical reason to mention him in this thread. My memories of F1 start in 1976, so I cant really comment much more on him.

It is actually quite hard to come up with an utterly compelling argument for many drivers - Moss aside.

For example: If Ross Brawn had not rescued the old Honda team and given Button a drive, then Buttons F1 career would quite possibly have been over. Then someone might have put his name forward in this thread, and they probably would have been shot down in flames by some posters who would be pointing out his terrible season in the Benetton.

There is an argument that the cream will rise to the top. But there is also that random element / fate etc. If Ross Brawn put a young inexperienced driver in the car instead, then Rubens might have won the WDC instead of Button.

If / buts / maybes.

I like this thread, and it is good to hear peoples opinions about those who did not quite make it.
Ickx was only runner up twice. In 1969 and '70. He finished 4th three times, in 1968, '71 and '72.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 11:55 (Ref:3773634)   #38
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Yes - and only 4 drivers have finished runner up twice or more without ever winning the WDC: Moss, Ickx, Barichello and Peterson
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 11:59 (Ref:3773635)   #39
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Originally Posted by coppice View Post
I think one has to look at actual performance in Formula 1 rather than rely mainly on potential , which quickly ends up as speculation . And many drivers have been great in F3 for example but not carried through in F1- Dave Walker, Jan Magnussen and many , many others .

So Pryce , Williamson, Brise - who knows ? Too brief a career to know - my guess only Brise had the killer instinct.

Amon- no - too temperamental and lacked the mental strength of a Lauda or Stewart

Peterson and Villeneuve - nope.Feted for their press on style but tactical and not strategic drivers .

Watson , Arnoux - brilliant on their day but never consistently top drawer. And I'd put Regazzoni, Coulthard and Montoya here too .

Gurney - no. Too many other things on his plate- very much the renaissance man

Lots of nearly men like Siffert, Rodriguez , Reutemann, Lafitte et al

So my candidates are - the most obvious is MOSS of course, but very closely followed by ICKX (who was super smart,staggeringly quick and unflappable . But somehow lost his mojo by 73/4 - occasional flashes of brilliance but he looked invincible in 70 )

My wild card , but based on very few F1 drives - the multi talented VIC ELFORD
I completely disagree about Peterson. One needs to bear in mind, that when he was driving for Lotus, he was the number 2 driver and therefore essentially wingman to first Fittipaldi and then Andretti.

He finished 3rd in 1973, notching up four wins and despite finishing 5th in '74 he still won three races. The venture with Tyrrell was a disaster but then things hadn't been good at Lotus either, with the ageing Lotus 72 and the problematic Lotus 76.

In 1978, he won two races with a spate of second places behind Andretti and still finished as runner up in the WDC, despite the tragic accident at Monza.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 12:10 (Ref:3773639)   #40
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The problem with Peterson though is that he needed an Emmo or a Mario to develop the car, as he was next to hopeless on set up
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 12:39 (Ref:3773644)   #41
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The problem with Peterson though is that he needed an Emmo or a Mario to develop the car, as he was next to hopeless on set up
Very true.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 13:04 (Ref:3773650)   #42
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The problem with Peterson though is that he needed an Emmo or a Mario to develop the car, as he was next to hopeless on set up
The Lotus 72 made its debut in 1970 and won 5 races, with Emmo winning the US GP. However the next year, it's best finish was just second place. Lotus turned the 72 around in '72 but was that due to Emmo, or Tony Rudd redesigning the rear of the car? Also, when Peterson rejoined Lotus in late 1977 he initially tested the Lotus 78. If he were next to hopeless on set up, he wouldn't have been, as quick as he was and he was very quick.
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 13:20 (Ref:3773653)   #43
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The Lotus 72 made its debut in 1970 and won 5 races, with Emmo winning the US GP. However the next year, it's best finish was just second place. Lotus turned the 72 around in '72 but was that due to Emmo, or Tony Rudd redesigning the rear of the car? Also, when Peterson rejoined Lotus in late 1977 he initially tested the Lotus 78. If he were next to hopeless on set up, he wouldn't have been, as quick as he was and he was very quick.


That doesn’t disprove the fact at all
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 13:29 (Ref:3773657)   #44
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That doesn’t disprove the fact at all
What fact?
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Old 11 Oct 2017, 13:45 (Ref:3773662)   #45
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The fact he wasn’t good at setup
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