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Old 22 Jun 2002, 16:45 (Ref:319061)   #1
z2252314
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z2252314 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Time to drop the "williams is rubbish" belief.

Ive said all throughout the season that the majority of Ferraris advantage were coming from the tyres. Yes, they have had a car advantage, but I think that has been somewhat negated over the last few races. Michelin have really improved (especially in qualifying), and I think they're getting really close to Ferrari in qualifying. What annoys me is the continuous belief that this Williams is a tank. "montoya is putting this car in places where it doesnt belong.. blah blah blah". They should also state that Ralf (who montoya fans consider garbage) is putting the car an enormous 0.009 seconds behind the God(and he had 1 less run). Yes, montoya has had good run late in qualifying, but the Williams is certainly no toleman, and Juan Pablo is certainly no Senna.

What happened to the days when drivers had to prove themselves before they got the godlike status. I dont mind the fans cheering and praising his efforts. Yes, 3 poles are nice, but until he has had more than 1 race win on a straight power circuit, until he shows some skill in the wet, until he can make a run at the championship etc, then to me he can be put in no higher class than drivers such as JV, Hill etc (in fact I wouldnt even put him in this class yet). I just consider it an insult when i read comments like "The next Senna", "The next Michael Schumacher". These guys got to the top and stayed their consistently. Yes, they both have had a few unsporting incidents which tarnished their career (more so Michael because he's still alive), but nobody can deny their skill. "But they both drove dominating cars" I hear you say. Plllleeeasse, people should go back and look what Michael and Senna drove in their first two years. "But he has only driven 2 years" I hear you say. Thats exactly my point!! If he can string 3 impressive seasons (by impressive I mean winning seasons) then you can justify your godly comments.

To summarise
1) JPM has shown talent/potential
2) he has yet to realise that potential to its fullest
3) he may become one of the greats
4) but he might not (JV case in point)
5) 1 win with the best car on the grid (yes, Williams was not inferior to Ferrari at Monza) does not qualify for greateness.


I am very much looking forward to tommorrows race. He may begin to turn me into a believer.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 16:52 (Ref:319067)   #2
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freud has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
On merit, JPM cannot be beaten. If the car holds together, there is nno first corner nonsense and the pitstops are good, he'll win.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 17:02 (Ref:319074)   #3
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Freud........since you claim to be a "Schumacher fan" (what an insult to other Schuey fans ), i guess that makes you a supporter of the underdogs....???
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 17:23 (Ref:319084)   #4
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Tom Fuller should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Michelin's work well on hot laps, and as I was hearing earlier, should only work at full potential for 10 laps and that tomorrow, out of 60.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 17:23 (Ref:319085)   #5
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freud has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I support the 'best' & the 'fastest' driver period. I do appreciate his other qualities which make him a champion and a great driver particularly his focused and perfectionist approach to racing. However, fact remains that he never was the fastest driver on grid (over a single lap). Senna then Mika and now JPM hold the throne of being fastest. Its not what I think, its what 90% of people associated with f1 think.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 17:55 (Ref:319103)   #6
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Mania should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by freud
Senna then Mika and now JPM hold the throne of being fastest.
Thats laughable. Senna Vs Schumacher was too short to determine who was quicker - as for Montoya - time
will tell.One and a half season is still to short to make a determination, unless you're clutching at straws yet again.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 18:17 (Ref:319116)   #7
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freud has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Lets not get into who's the 'fastest' discussion. We follow f1 on television and hence our opinions are not correct. I just follow what the critics, technical people in f1 & other drivers think. Most of them are of the opinion that TGF has never been the fastest man on track or fastest over a single lap. He's strength is consistency. Though its 'arguable'.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 18:32 (Ref:319120)   #8
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BBKing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Consistency and the fact that the team gives him an unfair advantage both against his teammate and against the other competitors. Is like MicroSux destroying the competition before they get to the track....LOL
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 22:21 (Ref:319225)   #9
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Rambo should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Ferrari and Williams are both excellent cars. Last year, the Wiiliams was markedly better on high-speed tracks. This year, things are a lot closer. It seems impossible to tell with the different rubber.

One thing strikes me though - last year, Williams and Michelin had a symbiotic relationship. Now, Michelin has to cater for others as well, and perhaps the tyre is not quite as Williams-oriented. Bridgestone, on the other hand, have copied Michelin-Williams from last year and have tailored their rubber to Ferrari.


And lastly - Michael is not as good at stringing a perfect lap together. Monty can often put his fastest segments into one fantastic lap - whereas Michael is apt to go faster here and there - but never all at once. Bit like Mansell and Senna, IMHO.

But that Williams is still an excellent machine - as they usually are.

Swings and roundabouts. I remember the years of the Williams domination, and before it Mclaren. I remeber a certain M. Schumacher struggling against better cars and having a fight to the finish. I remember Senna in a fast-but-fragile Lotus.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 22:48 (Ref:319250)   #10
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That's correct BB,consistency,that's what champions are made of. Sure a superior package helps,but just look at the 2000 season,without the moisture at Suzuka he has to fight Mika in Malaysia for the WDC. Take away MS's wet weather points from all his cumulative seasons and it would be interesting to see where he sits in the standings. f1racing had a quote--Michael-in the rain-perfect harmony.

Last edited by kwd; 22 Jun 2002 at 22:50.
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Old 22 Jun 2002, 23:34 (Ref:319268)   #11
z2252314
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z2252314 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Its not what I think, its what 90% of people associated with f1 think.
If you take a poll on ten-tenths, then yes, probably 90% would say the columbian is quicker(considering JPM fans outnumber Michael fans 20-1). If however, the poll consists of past greats, team bosses, former and current drivers etc, i think youll find 90% would still say Michael is still clearly quicker. Michael has had more than 3 poles in a row before, and a lot more. Speed wins races. Yeh, you have to take advantage of strategy and opportunitites that present themselves, but claiming that you can win 60 odd grand prix by not being slow is absolutely ridiculous. Putting things into perspective, Michael has had one win given to him (Austria) but has also given one away (Malaysia 99'). Team orders have come into play less than a handful of times, so that still leaves 55 odd victories. People also seem to downplay consistency. What good is speed if you can only produce it for 1 lap. Michael can switch on just as good as anyone in the past. In fact, many of his wins have come from posting consecutive blistering laps before pitstops. I consider this more impressive, because it is consistent fast speed done during the race with less than perfect tyres.


P.S If Montoya was that quick today, why was Ralf only 0.009 further behind (with 1 less run aswell). Oh, I suppose Ralf is quicker than Michael? PLLLEEEAASSE.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 00:27 (Ref:319287)   #12
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EERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridEERO should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by z2252314


If you take a poll on ten-tenths, then yes, probably 90% would say the columbian is quicker(considering JPM fans outnumber Michael fans 20-1). .
I highly doubt both of your assertions.

Quote:
Originally posted by z2252314

1) JPM has shown talent/potential
2) he has yet to realise that potential to its fullest

This comment strikes me as far more reasonable.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 00:51 (Ref:319291)   #13
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Re: Time to drop the "williams is rubbish" belief.

Quote:
Originally posted by z2252314
What annoys me is the continuous belief that this Williams is a tank.
What do you expect from a car that goes BANG BANG BANG BANG all the time? maybe you should ask JPM what he thinks - the Williams press officer might give you a briefing.

Actually, apart from the Ferrari reliability, which is beyond anything I have previously seen in F1, and MSch's great driving ability, I think the superior speed might also have something to do with the two clutch gerbox as well as the tyres (which is also a significant factor). Whichever way you look at it, going BANGwhen the car is leading or about to take the lead or coming second doesn't help.
Yeah!! If you ask me, that Williams is a tank. BANG

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Old 23 Jun 2002, 02:04 (Ref:319309)   #14
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kwd should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The new Ferrari engine/tranny one piece unit only allows for 5/100 of a second quicker gear changes. As for any other superior speed advantages the way that Bmw pulled away on the straight in melbourne says to me that at best Ferrari's developments have pulled them even.[They are pulling out a new spec engine for the next race].As far as handling goes obviously the Williams is not that shoddy with pole in Monaco. So it could possibly just boil down to tires and if this gets sorted out maybe we will answer the question about what Montoya will do with Schumacher before the season is done.

Last edited by kwd; 23 Jun 2002 at 02:08.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 02:24 (Ref:319316)   #15
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Mania should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid


Too bad they cant copy and paste the Ferrari's plus points onto the BMW Williams!
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 02:25 (Ref:319317)   #16
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kwd should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
oops sorry Valve melbourne was the 2001 car but there is still very little in the straighline speed.Ralf hung onto him on the straight in Brazil

Last edited by kwd; 23 Jun 2002 at 02:34.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 02:26 (Ref:319318)   #17
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Let's not take anything away from the drivers...but also not away from the crew as well.

JPM produced another good qualifying performance...(heh, ironic how some moan to see Michael on pole many times in a row bad for sports...seesh ), but i think it is fair to say that Williams/BMW/Michelin has a overall package which is as good as Ferrari/Bridgestone. Ralf being 0.009s slower isn't a big load...and it shows that JPM being way faster as a driver isn't really the main cause of getting pole...

There are opinions split on how Mika may be a better qualifier, or how even HHF is faster over a lap. Maybe. But Michael is himself a great qualifier too...how many times when we had seen him in 2nd or 3rd in provisional...only to put in one sensational lap to pull out a pole...sometimes even by quite a margin. Or sometimes how he could even set a super quick time, sit the last 10mins out and see his opponents frantically but fail to equal the time? Sure, just like in JPM's case, the package helps...but there are times in his career too where the package had worked against his qualifyings too.


Be fair to both...i don't mind seeing JPM on pole for this race, because i enjoyed watching the battle...Michael just before passing the start/finish was quite in the pants...



P.S, the car difference now actually are pretty small, considering that a better tire can easily turn that deficit, if any, into a huge advantage...think about it.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 02:30 (Ref:319320)   #18
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
haha...mania, i liked that picture...

i saw it on broadcast...and what i saw was Michael having a laugh with DC, while two boys were busy "studying" the red car... kind of reminds me of myself at my local motorshow not too long ago, giving the same look to the F399, 98 Mclaren, 99'Arrows, 2000 Williams BMW, 99 Team Green (?)... a look of awe (though some are mere display models)
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 03:50 (Ref:319329)   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by kwd
The new Ferrari engine/tranny one piece unit only allows for 5/100 of a second quicker gear changes.
Surely this can't be correct - that's .05 of a second. When you multiply that by the number of gear changes around the track in a single lap, that would make up several seconds a lap. Could you check your sources again please? Because that's equivalent to 1 second per 20 gear changes.

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Old 23 Jun 2002, 04:02 (Ref:319334)   #20
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yes but valve you have to run this thru an ascending acceleration curve thru each gear transmit this to angular speed thru the tires translating that to lineal distance on the track,then take that lineal distance over total lap distance times it by x over JPM's average lap time to find MS's total advantage. and sorry the gear change time is .05 or a 15% improvement over last year.

Last edited by kwd; 23 Jun 2002 at 04:06.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 04:11 (Ref:319338)   #21
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guess what valve, I really don't know what I am talking about but I think some of the theory might work. But it is a 15%improvement.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 04:12 (Ref:319340)   #22
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What have you been drinking?

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Old 23 Jun 2002, 04:22 (Ref:319345)   #23
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kwd should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
nothing yet, but that sounds like a good idea,cya later.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 04:23 (Ref:319346)   #24
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f1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The Williams is a faster car. The Ferrari, arguably of course, is better handling and far more reliable.
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Old 23 Jun 2002, 07:29 (Ref:319401)   #25
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Actually, Ferrari is so far relatively lucky...Schumacher had quite serious mechanical problems pre-race for the last few races, but thankfully nothing is translated into the race.
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