Plate Racin'

[fieldodreams79]

since Chad Knaus is about to take his 4th title in a row, i'd like to see what others think about plate racing.

do you love it or hate it?

what's wrong about it?

what's right?

if there are problems, how can you fix it, reasonably?

you must remember that this involves NASCAR's biggest race.
personally, i'm done with it and would like to them go back to the beach and road course. lets see how the CoT splitter gets through the sandy turns.

[JHamilton]

The fact that we are talking about restrictor plates on top of a carb is part of the problem! Fuel injection has been popular on American V8s for 50 years, standard for 20+... they're called fuelies!

Putting aside aerodynamics, how about we drastically reduce engine displacement and therefore power? It might even cause a nasty side effect of "innovation". Or open up engine regulations? Ford no longer makes a OHV V8 and Toyota never has. I suppose that goes against the new Nascar model.

[FIRE]

Like short track racing it's part of NASCAR racing.

[MJ_N_09]

Can I select more than one? It's such a love/hate for me.

[Graz]

It sucks

[johntt]

I used to like it, but now the cars have got to the point where they have outgrown the tracks in terms of speed, and with the way the cars have been taking off they are playing Russian Roulette with motorsport.

The disaster at Le Mans in 1955 nearly killed racing back then, the same thing happening now doesn't bear thinking about. The response some people give is 'Racing is dangerous, get over it' but thats not going to wash with the wider public, the media, or politicians.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Can I select more than one? It's such a love/hate for me.

well, my boy, time to take a stand...thought about making more than one answer an option but this is America. love it or leave it!

was in the same spot as you until this last race. the excitment of close racing is only short lived when you see many race cars torn up......even ugly ones.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Like short track racing it's part of NASCAR racing.

short tracks have always been a part of NASCAR....plates have not. sure you can say it's a part of it now, if you want to take that road, but that seems to be a "follow the France Fam til the end" kind of answer.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

well, my boy, time to take a stand...thought about making more than one answer an option but this is America. love it or leave it!

was in the same spot as you until this last race. the excitment of close racing is only short lived when you see many race cars torn up......even ugly ones.

Doesn't matter, I already picked hate.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Doesn't matter, I already picked hate.

"I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I don't even know you, but I hate you. I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and only to you." - Silky Johnston, Player Hater

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

"I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I don't even know you, but I hate you. I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and only to you." - Silky Johnston, Player Hater

[muggle not]

they should bulldoze the track, It wasn't meant for today's generation of cars.

[Purist]

Take the plates off the CoTs. Wallace went around Talladega in the 216mph bracket in a 2004 test (still slower than Mark Donohue's outright record set in 1975). And the CoT will definitely be slower because of MUCH MORE DRAG.

Now before you all cry, moan or shout me down, really think about it. If the cars are faster, the draft is less important, and there is a greater speed differential between cars, there will NOT be this sort of pack racing to the extent we have seen. This will reduce the risk of wrecks, and thus, almost certainly more than mitigate the increased danger of blowovers caused merely by the increase in speeds; they're already doing 195mph in the draft anyway.

Yeah, we make a big deal about Bobby Allison's crash in 1987. Then again, how many debris fence impacts have we seen since then? Heck, we saw Richard Petty barrel-roll and take out a chunk of chain link at the 1988 Daytona 500. Jimmy Horton went clear out of the park at the 1993 Grand National race at Talladega. And need we be reminded of Geoff Bodine's shunt at Daytona in a freaking TRUCK race? We forget that the drivers escaped injury in that 1987 race, and there were only minor injuries behind the chain link. We certainly ran the same risk of injury to fans and drivers at the Spring race in Talladega when Edwards just about landed in Newma's lap, and then bounced across to take a chunk out of the debris fence.

This could also become an issue at other tracks if we don't sort it now. They run ~210mph into Turn 1 at Michigan and Fontana. Meanwhile, the high-banked, 1.5-mile ovals pose the problem that, with restrictor plates, the cars are just as fast around the lap because they can then run flat-out through the turns. They found this out at a test several years ago at Atlanta. Heck, if it's the airborne issue, we're out of luck, as someone can be tipped into a barrel-roll at any of the tracks with significant banking, even Dover and Bristol.

Just thinking again about that last comment, does anyone think the center of gravity for the CoT might be too high if they can be made to roll over that easily?

Finally, Muggle, so by that logic, shouldn't we bulldoze every track that's more than, say, 15 years old? Sorry, but your point is rather ludicrous. The cars should be made to work on the tracks they run at, period.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

"I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I don't even know you, but I hate you. I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and only to you." - Silky Johnston, Player Hater

This went completely over my head....

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Purist

Yeah, we make a big deal about Bobby Allison's crash in 1987. Then again, how many debris fence impacts have we seen since then? Heck, we saw Richard Petty barrel-roll and take out a chunk of chain link at the 1988 Daytona 500. Jimmy Horton went clear out of the park at the 1993 Grand National race at Talladega. And need we be reminded of Geoff Bodine's shunt at Daytona in a freaking TRUCK race? We forget that the drivers escaped injury in that 1987 race, and there were only minor injuries behind the chain link. We certainly ran the same risk of injury to fans and drivers at the Spring race in Talladega when Edwards just about landed in Newma's lap, and then bounced across to take a chunk out of the debris fence.

Since I'm a crashin' kind of guy, I just want to add some to this

While Richard Petty's crash in 1988 did indeed damage the catch fence it was still a very different type of impact, as the car basically grazed the catch fence along a straight, which meant the amount of debris that risked going into the stands were a bit less compared to the more direct impacts towards the crowd (such as the one by Carl Edwards).

As for Jimmy Horton, it wasn't in the Grand National race but during the Die Hard 500 Winston Cup race that he was tipped into the barrel roll which saw him end up beside the parking lot outside the track (allowing him to utter the classic line "You know you're in trouble when the first person to reach you is holding a beer"). Ironically Horton came off easy compared to another driver involved in that violent wreck: Stanley Smith went head on into the wall and is to this day the only one I know of that has survived a basal skull fracture (the same type of injury that killed Dale Earnhardt and several other NASCAR drivers during those dark years between 2000-2001). Not that anyone believed he'd make it given the way he looked after they got him out of the car (not shown during the official race feed but included on the raw satellite one that's out there), but he eventually recovered and got back to racing (albeit in lower divisions).

Also, in the very same race Neil Bonnett flipped in the tri-oval and went into the catch fence in a rather similar fashion to how Edwards did it. The impact wasn't as hard, however, and I haven't read about any injuried among the fans as a result of it.

Moving on to Bobby Allison's crash in 1987, if the information I have is correct a woman lost an eye in that incident.

Adding to the topic of cars going into the fence, let's not forget Ricky Craven's wild tumble at Talladega in 1996 where he slammed into the fence at the same place where Horton had gone over the wall three years earlier, and in 2004 we had an ARCA car go into the Daytona fence (minor impact but contact nonetheless). I also seem to recall a Camping World Truck Series truck ripping out a bit of the catch fence at Bristol in the late 90's.

Originally Posted by Purist

Just thinking again about that last comment, does anyone think the center of gravity for the CoT might be too high if they can be made to roll over that easily?

I'd say the higher center of gravity has made the cars turn over a bit more easily, yes. Then again, other than Joey Logano's flip at Dover I can't really think of a CoT-flip where one can say that it defintely played a huge part. Mark Martin's flip, for example, could've happened just as easily in the old car (as Clint Bowyer showed at Daytona in 2007) given the type of car-to-car impact that set it off. I guess it might have played a factor in Michael McDowell going over at Texas, but given the high speed and massive forces involved, as well as the front-to-rear rotational kind of impact, I have a feeling it could have flipped over just as easily had it been the old car (like Dale Earnhardt Sr. did at Talladega in 1996 which was a similar type of rotational impact).

Ok, I'll stop 'theorycrafting' about wrecks now =P

Originally Posted by Purist

Finally, Muggle, so by that logic, shouldn't we bulldoze every track that's more than, say, 15 years old? Sorry, but your point is rather ludicrous. The cars should be made to work on the tracks they run at, period.

I totally 100% agree with the bold part.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Purist

Take the plates off the CoTs. Wallace went around Talladega in the 216mph bracket in a 2004 test (still slower than Mark Donohue's outright record set in 1975). And the CoT will definitely be slower because of MUCH MORE DRAG.

Now before you all cry, moan or shout me down, really think about it. If the cars are faster, the draft is less important, and there is a greater speed differential between cars, there will NOT be this sort of pack racing to the extent we have seen. This will reduce the risk of wrecks, and thus, almost certainly more than mitigate the increased danger of blowovers caused merely by the increase in speeds; they're already doing 195mph in the draft anyway.

No crying over here. May the best engine builder win.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

This went completely over my head....

Chapelle Show... sorry

[MJ_N_09]

Ain't seen Chapelle in years, sorry.

[neiltb]

Originally Posted by Purist

If the cars are faster, the draft is less important, and there is a greater speed differential between cars, there will NOT be this sort of pack racing to the extent we have seen. .

if the cars are faster in clean air, they will be faster still in the draft, drafting becomes more important.

If the point is to have the cars slow in the turns, give them less tire, without the grip they must brake, but that would be dull on a superspeedway.

I don't think you can fix plate races, technologically we are above them, the spec aero doesn't help either where you can't even manufacture an advantage. no bumping in turns means no 2 or 3 car breakaway attempts as all the racing is done on the straights.

I's almost like watching stationary drag racing.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by neiltb

If the point is to have the cars slow in the turns, give them less tire, without the grip they must brake, but that would be dull on a superspeedway.

myself and a fellow poster here have been saying for years to go back to bias ply tires, but i am unsure how safe or how much that will change things. with bias ply tires, they would really have to wheel it through the corners, tho.

[Dutton]

I like plate races. I definitely much prefer properly short short tracks, but there is an appeal to plate racing. I wouldn't say I love it as such, but I certainly don't hate it.

[fieldodreams79]

good to see that someone ain't afraid to put in a vote for "LOVE"...well done, Dutton.

glad to see that you prefer real racing, tho.

[R59]

I love plate racing too. It's part of NASCAR, just like short tracks, road courses, and any other speedway.

The only thing missing from NASCAR these days is dirt tracks.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by R59

I love plate racing too. It's part of NASCAR, just like short tracks, road courses, and any other speedway.

this arguement has been stated in a previous post and has little merit. plates came along in the lates 80s while short tracks, road courses and MANY other speedways were a "part" of NASCAR long before they decided to put a bandaid on a "spectator" safety issue and called it fine. now we are stuck with a 20 year old solution that was stupid 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by R59

The only thing missing from NASCAR these days is dirt tracks.

100% agreement here. build another Langhorne Speedway or let 'em race at the Springfield Mile or at the NY State Fairgrounds or the like.

[Dutton]

Yeah, dirt races would be superb to have back. I would love to see them running at NY Fairground. That is cool track when I have seen stuff running there (on TV I mean).