[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It takes more than 1 person to make an argument.

I don't understand the train of thought. It's dangerous exiting the pits, but it'd be ok on a start finish straight? I'm also not sure why LMP2 speeds are dangerous. We have GTEs?

I haven't seen a decent argument as to why it's dangerous at all. Maybe in a single class formula, but multi-class, no.

Racing in general is dangerous That's not what I said anyway. I said it seems like the wrong place to do 1km on only electric when they're doing this big safety push. Think about where that 1km is on the track and what takes place after that. I'll get back to that later. Imo, doing it on the start finish straight is a better idea because that's what they wanted to do anyway with their suggestion of finishing the race on electric! Killed two birds with one stone there. And that's where most fans in the stands are located so they can 'show off' their all electric speed.

What I said before about the location on the track- my point of doing 1km on electric is that you're first coming out the pits merging to traffic at high speed then one of the slowest parts with the dunlop chicane. There's not much speed to be had there because almost as soon as you're out the pits, you're on the brakes to a slow part of the track. This kinda goes into the "lmp2 speeds" claim at the same time...

Lmp's seemed to be pretty close through sector 1 this year, only maybe a second and a half or so separated the p1's and p2's. So with all the hybrid power plus the engine, lmp1 wasn't that much faster in the first part of the lap. The best sector 1 by lmp1 was a 31.4, lmp2 was a 32.8. This is why I put little (' ') marks around lmp2 speeds. Because I have a hard time believing they'll be doing lmp2 speeds on electric alone. They'll have to really increase the output of the electric motors because right now it's limited thanks to Sarthe being a grade 2 track. There's the biggest safety part right there, not just from my pov but the FIA's. In order to go that fast/put out more power they'll have to retract the limit on the electric output. That goes against their recent rule change because of safety. To me, it would be fine, because they'll be even faster!

Sorry for the long post. I hope I cleared up what I was getting at with the 'safety' thing.

[chernaudi]

DSC caught something in their Peugeot to LMP1 article about proposed aero regs for 2020.

Peugeot stated that the ACO could enforce a spec underbody on the cars with some zones for development. DSC clarified this as targeting some areas (mostly the tuning vane stuff that got opened up with the 2014 rules) to restrict development.

I kinda intrepret this as going back to the 2004-2013 regs where the ACO had a quasi-spec underfloor with a near spec rear diffuser and a spec area between the front and rear diffusers. Only area that was free to any real degree was the front diffuser, and I'd have to think that the prorposed 2020 underbody rules are leaning to going back to the older regs.

[Adam43]

So Peugeot can just roll out the old 908?

[chernaudi]

I know that you're being sarcastic, but no. First off, the 908 was 2000mm wide vs the current 1900mm, and is power limited by air restrictor vs fuel flow.

And unless the ACO change those two parameters, no one can just roll out an "old" car and race it in LMP1.

Not to mention that technology has moved on and now the ACO want to introduce movable aero on LMP1 cars in 2020.

Which, that point is probably what's driving the ACO to reportedly cut back on stuff like underbody tuning vanes by closing up regs on the area behind the front wheels back to 2013 and earlier levels.

And, no, I don't think we'll be going back to LMP900/675 style flat bottoms (though the diffuser exits on factory LMP1s now are what the LMP900s were in terms of height and volume. Also, the tunnels start later on the current cars it seems, too).

[Matt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I know that you're being sarcastic, but no. First off, the 908 was 2000mm wide vs the current 1900mm, and is power limited by air restrictor vs fuel flow.

And unless the ACO change those two parameters, no one can just roll out an "old" car and race it in LMP1.

Not to mention that technology has moved on and now the ACO want to introduce movable aero on LMP1 cars in 2020.

Which, that point is probably what's driving the ACO to reportedly cut back on stuff like underbody tuning vanes by closing up regs on the area behind the front wheels back to 2013 and earlier levels.

And, no, I don't think we'll be going back to LMP900/675 style flat bottoms (though the diffuser exits on factory LMP1s now are what the LMP900s were in terms of height and volume. Also, the tunnels start later on the current cars it seems, too).

thats all you needed to say.

[Adam43]

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being silly.

Although I have also managed to make a subtle point about posting in multiple threads at the same time. At least in the other thread I got a sensible response from joeb.

[hondafan37]

This is the LMP1 car concept of Wirth Research of 2012 that never raced.

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/wir...s-les-cartons/

https://www.wirthresearch.com/concepts/motorsports

[carbsmith]

Seems to be a Nissan for some reason.

[Japanese Samurai]

You are great detective!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

This is the LMP1 car concept of Wirth Research of 2012 that never raced.

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/wir...s-les-cartons/

https://www.wirthresearch.com/concepts/motorsports

Looks just like the ARX 03 with a weird roof, a different nose cone and updated front fender exits. Oh yeah, and a new manufacturer on the front

[deggis]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Seems to be a Nissan for some reason.

Not just the livery and the flag, also "GT-R" on the nose.

Did Nissan pay them to do this concept...

[hondafan37]

As a product of the publication of the Wirth Research concept, DSC will incorporate a new section of the cars that never raced.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...ver-raced.html

In this article mentions the project of the Audi TT GT2 of which I did not know of its existence, and looking information I found an even more ambitious car that was the R8 GT1. This car looks incredible and shows how wonderful the GT1 were before they become prototypes.
This car never raced and was the base for the R8C ,Although Audi gave more support to its LMP1 spyder.

http://fourtitude.com/features/Misce...car-proposals/

[Articus]

Lets get that stillborn Lexus LFA, and that Mclaren from '13 or so.

[NaBUru38]

Mazda motorsport director John Doonan asks for DPi in the FIA WEC.

[chernaudi]

Not directly related to LMP1 regs, but it's been posted in the '17 Super GT thread that Super Formula are thinking of reverting to using air restrictors on their engines from 2019 onwards.

Of course, since Super GT and Super Formula share their basic engine formula, I wonder if that would have an impact on Super GT and if it could be a sign of change with the flow of maybe going away from fuel flow to limit car performance, including LMP1?

[YZFrider]

As been mentioned before I could see DPi being a base for a future LMP1 class. Due to the spec and bop nature of the class, some restrictions would have to be lifted in order to fit the nature of what it means to be prototype and the top class in a world renowned race/championship. Not to mention DPi would be slower than the LMP1L's already (except maybe ByKolles). Free tires, drop the requirement of production cues in the aero, freed up engine restrictions, etc.

Something similar happened in 1994. ACO developed the LMP classes while IMSA created the WSC class. Mostly similar however the ACO allowed a little more freedom and if my history is correct IMSA dropped the stock block engine rule to align more towards the ACO regs. How I would love to see that for IMSA if they curtailed some restrictions and checked themselves with the constant BoP

[TF110]

Ginetta showed off a new (computer generated) image of their lmp1 today

https://twitter.com/GinettaCars/stat...97013463527424

They are back in the Williams windtunnel. I think the project is coming along nicely and hope to see a few of them next year.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

As been mentioned before I could see DPi being a base for a future LMP1 class. Due to the spec and bop nature of the class, some restrictions would have to be lifted in order to fit the nature of what it means to be prototype and the top class in a world renowned race/championship. Not to mention DPi would be slower than the LMP1L's already (except maybe ByKolles). Free tires, drop the requirement of production cues in the aero, freed up engine restrictions, etc.

Something similar happened in 1994. ACO developed the LMP classes while IMSA created the WSC class. Mostly similar however the ACO allowed a little more freedom and if my history is correct IMSA dropped the stock block engine rule to align more towards the ACO regs. How I would love to see that for IMSA if they curtailed some restrictions and checked themselves with the constant BoP

WSC was the direct predecessor to LMP900 and first generation LMP1. Originally, they didn't run air restrictors as it was felt that the stock block engines couldn't make more than 600bhp reliably.

Ultimately, that was proven wrong, and between that and wanting to standardize on ACO regs (with the founding of the Petit Le Mans and the IMSA American Le Mans Series), the air restrictors came in.

IMO, the ACO need to dump focusing on marginal--and expensive--aero gains if they're going to open up aero. And DPI definitely can't be top class at LM with the micromanaged levels of performance balancing in my honest opinion.

[chernaudi]

Having thought about it, I do wonder if the rumored goings on in Japan (dumping fuel flow in favor of going back to air restirctors in Super Formula and probably also Super GT in a couple of years) is them looking at a contingency plan.

The fuel flow regs have proven to be expensive, because to use an existing engine concept, you have to adapt it, which probably isn't cheap, as Audi Sport and TMG will probably tell you. Or you have to develop a new powertrain concept, which that for sure isn't cheap.

Air restrictors, for their failings and simplicity, are cheap to implement and adapt to. The fuel flow stuff has pretty significant knock on costs, running into the thousands of dollars for each engine, and also even for the electronics package for the car itself.

Also, IMO, the fuel flow formula on the LMP1 end isn't a privateer friendly format. Due to cost and technical hurdles, I can see private teams not being a fan of the technology.

The current LMP1 cars could do with some simplification to make them more appealing to private teams. I know that LMP1 privateer tech regs are supposed to be locked in until 2022, but I know that if you want to grow the field, you have to make it accessible to privateers and OEMs on small budgets.

That IMO was the single biggest problem with the current rules. As I said, I don't think we should be lamenting why VAG pulled their teams (they probably would've eventually pulled one due to pressures from the overall Volkswagen Group board over redundancy), but why no one else came in?

[carbsmith]

Part of the reason Nissan pulled out was because even if they got the car to work like the simulations they felt they couldn't catch up to the pace of the development of the VAG teams.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...w-from-the-wec

He explained that Nissan could not be sure of "meeting our own performance targets in line with what we think our competitors will do next year".

It's hard to say why exactly Super Formula might be using whatever engines they end up with in their next generation cars depending on any partnerships JAF may have with other series.

[chernaudi]

If JAF are going back to air restrictors due to cost reasons, it might be down to them trying to make the engines cheaper to get more entries or make SF/SGT more appealing to private teams.

Nowadays, expense is a big problem, especially for regional series like Super GT. Let alone for a world championship and a class like LMP1. In execution, I don't think that DPI is the answer, though the concept for a prototype class that doesn't revolve around heavy OEM dollars and is privateer friendly would do wonders for LMP1.

I'm not a fan of a spending cap, but one way to sort of get one is just make it not worth the while to spend $100 million plus a season. As I posted in the Porsche thread, if you have a $20 million program up against a $100 million program and you're slower, the car in that $20 million program is just about useless unless you can spin it as a marketing exercise. But even such deals are motivated by results.

But if you can make it so that a $20 million program can compete with a $100 million program, or make a $5 million program relatively competitive with a $20 million one, then that'll make the sport healthier.

[TF110]

I've been reading for the past couple days that Honda in conjunction with DOME is looking to enter lmp1. This website has Jenson Button's name popping up to be a pilot. He said he would have a full time drive in 2018, so they feel he could run a DOME NSX GT500 in the run up to the lmp1 entry. I wonder if there's any truth to this?

[Ospi]

As long as none of the ideas from the previous dome are brought along..

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

I've been reading for the past couple days that Honda in conjunction with DOME is looking to enter lmp1. This website has Jenson Button's name popping up to be a pilot. He said he would have a full time drive in 2018, so they feel he could run a DOME NSX GT500 in the run up to the lmp1 entry. I wonder if there's any truth to this?

I hope that happen, but unfortunately neither Dome or Honda has been very promising.
I believe in Dome if they got the proper support from a manufacture, but Honda is currently in such a bad state in F1 that there can't be a lot of ressources which can be diverted into an LMP1 project.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by CTD

I hope that happen, but unfortunately neither Dome or Honda has been very promising.
I believe in Dome if they got the proper support from a manufacture, but Honda is currently in such a bad state in F1 that there can't be a lot of ressources which can be diverted into an LMP1 project.

I think Honda spend about 100 some million in supporting McLaren and whatever the engine program costs. That's not that much if you think about how big the budgets from Ferrari and those top guys are. I don't know about the validity of these claims though. I think DOME with Honda backing could be really competitive. Maybe they'll find a use for their f1 engines if the McLaren deal goes away? They'll have more freedom in the wec too, and shouldn't have to worry about being severly restricted in testing.