[Multi 21] Are Team Orders Racing?

[dirtymacca]

With the latest sports debacles and the use of terms such as "bringing the sport into disrepute"... "match fixing" etc. Do team orders fall into any of these categories ?

Surely team orders affect the final outcome, then does it fall into a similar category as "match fixing" which caused the game of cricket to fall into the disrepute category. Is it illegal? It is in cricket and criminal charges are laid.

I am sure there are many views on this..... cars can be manipulated from the pits, it is not a bat or ball sport etc. No one financially benefits from team orders....or do they? I am sure people do as sports betting covers F1. Drivers contract negotiations could be affected based on performance.

Are the paying public getting a "fair" race.... That is the best and fastest car/team combination wins.

[deeks6]

OFFICIAL TEAM ORDERS GUIDE FROM FAN PERSPECTIVE:

Vettel Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber has been screwed again!
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity.
German - Seb is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Webber Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber is a gritty racer. Good on him
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity so Webber should do what he wants
German - Who is Webber?

Hamilton Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Who cares? he's an overrated toss bag
British - Wow, it goes to show that this man is a "racer" who will give his everything to provide entertainment, the true spirit of F1 and world peace
German - Who is Hamilton?

Rosberg Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Great to see him sticking it up that overrated toss bag
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity. Perhaps Rosberg is similar?
German - Nico is the 2nd greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Ferrari Invoke Team orders
Australian - Cheats
British - Cheats
German (in MS Era) - Michael is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.
German (now) - Who is Ferrari?

[Paradise City]

It's racing, yes. It's been a part of the sport since the early days.

What I'd like to see and might someway mitigate against the choreography that sometimes occurs in the sport is a blanket ban on team driver radio. They communicate by pit board only. Then, in any team orders that were arranged before the race might very well be forgotten in the heat of the battle without a Rocky or whoever it is constantly reminding a particular driver about team orders.

I also think the hard task of wrangling strategy as the race progresses would be made far harder and would make the racing far more fraught, less strategy dependent and more entertaining.

They might still leave a radio channel open to race control so the driver can inform or be notified regarding any safety issue that emerges on the track.

[Rally Merc]

Here is another way to look at it.

In Red Bulls case, the drivers are employed by the teams to do a job. They should do what they are told just like the other team employees (mechanics, engineers, truck drivers, chefs etc) or fork out of their own pockets for a car/team so they can do as they wish.

Its a shame for Mark that in this case, the only way he could win was for Vettel to let him. I think he should just bite his lip and get on with it.

[redesp]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

With the latest sports debacles and the use of terms such as "bringing the sport into disrepute"... "match fixing" etc. Do team orders fall into any of these categories ?

Surely team orders affect the final outcome, then does it fall into a similar category as "match fixing" which caused the game of cricket to fall into the disrepute category. Is it illegal? It is in cricket and criminal charges are laid.

I am sure there are many views on this..... cars can be manipulated from the pits, it is not a bat or ball sport etc. No one financially benefits from team orders....or do they? I am sure people do as sports betting covers F1. Drivers contract negotiations could be affected based on performance.

Are the paying public getting a "fair" race.... That is the best and fastest car/team combination wins.

I'm suprised that betting agencies, and punters alike, aren't shouting from the rooftop on this one.

IF there is "honest" money to be made in sports betting; then it is surely comprimised by team orders that affect the outcome of an event.

To ask a naive question. Is there any benefit / advantage to the team by slowing up and saving tyres / engines. Don't the teams have an endless amount of rubber at thier disposal and wouldn't the engine be changed / rebuilt after each race... or are they just being environmentally frienly by not burnign up resources

[Armco Bender]

IF there is "honest" money to be made in sports betting; then it is surely comprimised by team orders that affect the outcome of an event.

Name an "honest'' sport?...

[Razzzor]

So is it the same people that castrate Vettel for passing Webber the same ones that call Rosberg a wuss for NOT passing Hamilton? Or would Rosberg have been equally ripped to pieces by everyone if he didn't obey Brawn? It's the same situation though, Rosberg obeyed, although did sit right up his rear throughout the stint and voiced his displeasure, while Vettel said to hell with it and took the win.

[Knowlesy]

If you bet on sport surely you do so with knowledge of what is likely to happen?

[dirtymacca]

The reality of my op is.... why is rigging the result in cricket a CRIMINAL offence but to do so in F1 is accepted????

[Darcia1]

Team orders have been around since racing began......

[Casper]

Mark would do well to remember that people in glass houses should not throw stones. He knows the rules, he is a second driver and employed to do what he is told which he vowed he would not do after the last incident. He is not the team owner's favorite son and he knows it but he finds it hard to accept as he is from all reports a very fair minded individual and does not like favoritism.

[Peat]

@Deeks

As no-one else here is going to acknowledge the time you put into that post, let me.

Good post man!

[Peat]

If team orders are that much of a problem, teams should be forced to field just one car.

As that will never happen, let them get on with it. Team orders is part of racing at this level. Get over it.

[peckstar]

I think team orders have there place. but to use them in race 2 my be counter productive.

Let the boys race until team orders is required by the championship standings

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by deeks6

OFFICIAL TEAM ORDERS GUIDE FROM FAN PERSPECTIVE:

team orders from a casual fan's perspective..

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

The reality of my op is.... why is rigging the result in cricket a CRIMINAL offence but to do so in F1 is accepted????

Because, obviously, team orders are allowed in the rules of F1 and are therefore not cheating. No one has contravened the rules.

Rigging a cricket match results is against the rules of the game.

[garcon]

Team orders have always been a part of professional motorsport, and have certainly always been so in forms other than F1. I see them frequently blatantly used in touring cars and rallying.

The biggest mistake made in F1, gladly now reversed, was the ridiculous banning of team orders to pander to F1 fans who can't seem to see that it's a team sport.

The cricket analogy is nonsensical. Rigging a cricket match for a betting consortium's gain is quite rightly illegal - and is clearly not acting in the best interests of the team.

The best example of another team sport that also rewards individual performance is road cycling, where team orders are even more prevalent and individual performances are routinely sacrificed in order to support the team leader - the member of the team with the best chance of winning.

[Steptoe]

Originally Posted by Rally Merc

Here is another way to look at it.

In Red Bulls case, the drivers are employed by the teams to do a job. They should do what they are told just like the other team employees (mechanics, engineers, truck drivers, chefs etc) or fork out of their own pockets for a car/team so they can do as they wish.

For what its worth I tend to agree on the whole as F1 is as much a business as a 'professional' sport. Business decisions get made and 'employees' should do as they are told. In this case you've got 3 guys who did as their employers asked and 1 that didn't. So he gets a slapped wrist and all the others are either disgruntled by management decisions or agree with the decision but it wasn't followed through. You could argue its race fixing which is a whole different debate but at the end of the day it will get resolved behind closed doors and you would think the manager who got disobeyed will also get a roasting for not keeping his employees in line. (I doubt it though)
The question you have to ask is had MW not yielded to SV and they collided you would have had 2 cars out and some very red faces or much worse. Not sure if SV has ever had a really big off but MW has had his fair share of huge offs and knows all too well that it can be a very nasty outcome when cars collide or break. I think that we saw a lack of maturity from the current world champion which he should be embarrassed about.

[Peat]

Would people expect a team of footballer's to tackle each other to win possession of the ball?

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Peat

Would people expect a team of footballer's to tackle each other to win possession of the ball?

No, but that also misses the core point - it wouldn't be to the benefit of the team.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by deeks6

OFFICIAL TEAM ORDERS GUIDE FROM FAN PERSPECTIVE:

Vettel Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber has been screwed again!
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity.
German - Seb is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Webber Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber is a gritty racer. Good on him
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity so Webber should do what he wants
German - Who is Webber?

Hamilton Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Who cares? he's an overrated toss bag
British - Wow, it goes to show that this man is a "racer" who will give his everything to provide entertainment, the true spirit of F1 and world peace
German - Who is Hamilton?

Rosberg Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Great to see him sticking it up that overrated toss bag
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity. Perhaps Rosberg is similar?
German - Nico is the 2nd greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Ferrari Invoke Team orders
Australian - Cheats
British - Cheats
German (in MS Era) - Michael is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.
German (now) - Who is Ferrari?

Makes me wonder, was "leave me alone, I know what I was doing" a defiance of team orders or something completely different because it wasn't Ferrari or a German...?

In case you are wondering, if Vettel wins the WDC this year it WILL be tainted but if Hamilton wins over Nico by three points it will be a return to glory for Lewis!

[Knowlesy]

Who says the WDC would be tainted? Sure, if Vettel beats Webber by less than 14 points it would leave a sour taste but it is a scenario I can't imagine. But certainly it would leave a more sour taste than the Mercedes scenario you mention.

Your Kimi example is so completely irrelevant I don't know what to say. That said, I do see the overall point you are trying to make and it is regrettably dumb.

I wonder if you have cross-referenced people's posts for example? Have a look through my history and you will see I am pro-team orders for instance. This isn't a case of Vettel hatred. I don't like the guy much, I'll dispute his best driver in F1 status, but he doesn't offend me at all. And I suspect it is largely the same for everyone else.

Team orders happen all the time. They are an important part of sport. They are in place to benefit the team. Yes, sometimes it can go terribly wrong such as when drivers ignore them or Austria 2002 which even Ross Brawn admits he would approach differently now, with hindsight. But 99% of the time they are fair game by me and most sane individuals. If you have paid to get two cars onto the track and splashed the cash on two star drivers you want to protect good results after all.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by garcon

No, but that also misses the core point - it wouldn't be to the benefit of the team.

This example always comes up and always makes me laugh.

If anything, racing each other hard is the equivalent of tackling a teammate for the ball.

[b1ackcr0w]

F1 is a team sport. Can you think of another team sport where it's ok for one guy on a side to go off and do his own thing, jeopardising the whole team's success?

[Marbot]

Yes, there are team orders. But there are also teams that let their team mates race, and others that don't. Are we to expect that whenever two team mates are together on track that one is automatically given priority over the other? How many of us, whilst watching that race, were relishing the prospect of team mates racing one another? Be honest now. Certainly the commentators that I were listening to, fully expected it. Never once did they ever say that the racing was now all done and that it was likely that the teams would ask their drivers to hold station. Quite the opposite, in fact. I wonder how they will deal with that scenario again? Not just the commentators, but the people at FOM that are pointing TV cameras at the track.