[Multi 21] F1 becoming a joke

[IceMan_PJN]

Originally Posted by Peralta

Drivers have aids now with KERS and DRS to make passing easier for them. No real skill from the driver.

They don't make passing easier. They make it possible. Without them, almost no overtaking would happen no matter how talented the drivers were. Yes, there would be overtakes, but far fewer. It doesn't do any good if you're the best driver the sport has ever seen if you run out of room to pass me before you get a chance to finish the job.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

DRS is a disaster. However, these designers don't have to look too far for inspiration. Formula Ford cars of old can follow easy in packs, they don't have much turbulence to deal with. Wider cars, wider tyres, slash the amount of front wing elements, and we are on the way there.

FF uses no real aero. The only reason F1 cars are so fast around a whole circuit is aero. Get rid of it and the cars will be slower than FRenault or similar. If you want to watch a aero free race, you have answered your own question. Watch FF.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by steve_r

DRS works on some tracks better than others. It seems to be totally unnecessary on tracks like Malaysia which has those two huge straights. On some other tracks the race would be much worse off without it IMO.

I never liked DRS from the outset. However they like to describe it, it's still a movable aerodynamic device.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by JamesH

FF uses no real aero. The only reason F1 cars are so fast around a whole circuit is aero. Get rid of it and the cars will be slower than FRenault or similar. If you want to watch a aero free race, you have answered your own question. Watch FF.

Not aero free, but something approaching it. I would like to see aero kits not that much more advanced than F3 cars, but to keep the cars "fast" I would like to see wider tyres and wider cars, say back to the 2200mm width of old.

[Purist]

Sodemo, wider cars will add drag, and slow them down on the straights. (A Porsche 911 GT3 RSR isn't really any quicker down the straights than a 911 GT3 Cup.) It will also slow them down in some corners that could otherwise be taken that little bit straighter.

Slowing the cars on the straights is detrimental to overtaking as well.

And, of course, to make up the speed from lost downforce would require more power than the 1986 turbo F1 cars had in qualifying trim.

[kartincolin]

The aerodynamic capabilities of an F1 car are the reason that millions of people watch them circulate round tracks like Spa-Francorchamps and Monaco in awe. If anything, I think the aerodynamics should be less restricted and allow the cars to retun to somewhere near the level of performance that was attained at the peak of the V10 era in 2004 and 2005.

Admittedly, an overtake in the era before DRS was something to be savoured, but on the flip side it was also a very rare occurance.

[S14]

Wouldn't wider cars be detrimental to overtaking? Not only by slowing the cars on the straights, but by leaving less room to get by. Less aero doesn't seem to be likely, except inasmuch as the regs will require lower drag. It'd be nice to see aero with lower turbulence, which should be easy enough to do, and wouldn't run up against F1's vested interest in being the fastest thing on four wheels.

As has been mentioned, less aero can't really be caught up with more "mechanical grip." Aero gives more traction the faster you go, whereas tyres get more and more marginal the more traction you demand of them. Aero will, therefore, always be king - that is, there will always be more to get out of the aerodynamics.

And I get the distaste some have for DRS, but what's the problem with KERS? Everybody has it, everybody can deploy it when they feel the need, so why is it bad?

[Purist]

KERS can be used at any point, basically, and can be used by any driver. The DRS can only be used at designated points, only by the following driver(s), and only if the pursuer is within a second of his adversary.

Going back to the old proportions for front and rear wings should help reduce the wake and wake sensitivity. Also, having simpler wings would help here. And, as I mentioned in my last post in the thread, get more of the downforce from the undertray.

It did seem absurd at Melbourne that Vettel, who was closing at 1.0-1.2 seconds a lap, couldn't get by Sutil.

The rain and DRS at Sepang seemed to make things much better, but going from what we saw at Melbourne, it seems like the front-running cars have a bigger aero bubble around them compared to last year, which doesn't bode well for overtaking this season if it proves to be the case after more dry races.

[Scooter185]

with new engines and likely other new regs next year hopefully we can see the elimination of DRS.

As far as tires go, and this can go hand in hand with no more DRS, either bring all the compounds and let the teams decide which to use. limiting the sets they have of each for the race to 2, except inters/wets and get rid of the reg on using at least 1 set of both option/primes

or let the teams choose the 2 compounds they want to bring, and keep the current amount of sets and the reg on needing to use one set of each.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by S14

Wouldn't wider cars be detrimental to overtaking? Not only by slowing the cars on the straights, but by leaving less room to get by.

I don't see that at all. Why would slower cars down straights be worse for overtaking? Anyway, if you had simpler aero with less overall wing effect, the drag would be lessened anyway. Making the cars wider in terms of the wider track would add drag, but would also increase the slipstream effect. They would also be more stable and adding wider rear tyres, coupled with a wider slip angle for the rears would enable cars to get more sideways, allowing for different driving styles.

I don't know why people always seem to think wider cars = less room for overtaking. Modern tracks now are like 30 metres wide. Do people really think that adding another 20cm to the width is really going to effect that? Plus that in decades gone by we have seen great overtaking at Monaco with cars 2200mm wide.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Peralta

With team orders mid way through a race, saving fuel and inferior tires not to mention DSR and KERS, Formula One is becoming increasingly nothing to do about who is the fastest driver out on the track winning the race. Drivers have aids now with KERS and DRS to make passing easier for them. No real skill from the driver. Drivers slowing down to preserve fuel and tires so not really racing is it? Team orders meaning hold station so no racing! F1 is quickly becoming entertainment instead of a race. How will this period be viewed twenty years from now. We have the best driver talent on the greed than any time in the history of F1, yet they are not allowed to race and show who really was the best out there that given day. What a joke, says Villenueve, indeed what a joke.

Firstly, F1 was starting to become joke in 94, and I now almost a complete joke. F1/car racing was never about who is the fastest driver out on the track in the first place. F1/car racing is about "car" racing. There's not much skill to passing anyway. Typically, if your car is faster, passing is easy, even if it's relatively.

"Drivers slowing down to preserve fuel and tires so not really racing is it?" It is if it means finishing the race and getting a win or a good result. Either build a better car or implement better tactics. Team orders to hold station exemplifies the fact that car racing is indeed not about the driver, but it is about "cars". 20 years from now fans will be whinging about how boring F1/car racing is.

"We have the best driver talent on the greed than any time in the history of F1" That is not a definitive statement. It can definitely be argued.

Originally Posted by kartincolin

The aerodynamic capabilities of an F1 car are the reason that millions of people watch them circulate round tracks

What??? Who?

Originally Posted by kartincolin

like Spa-Francorchamps and Monaco in awe. If anything, I think the aerodynamics should be less restricted and allow the cars to retun to somewhere near the level of performance that was attained at the peak of the V10 era in 2004 and 2005.

Eau Rouge used to be a corner which challenged the drivers and dared them to go harder. Nowadays it doesn't. Might as well pave over it and have a genuine straight from La Source to Les Combes.

Originally Posted by S14

Wouldn't wider cars be detrimental to overtaking?

No.

[MarkG]

I think it is naive to complain about team orders if you're a real motorsport fan. Team orders have been with motorsport since it's birth. so they are not a part of "F1 being a joke"

To me, the ridiculous amount of aero performance of F1 cars is a joke. It spoils close racing, and takes away the cornering challenges of the past. I wonder if the DRS gives a clue to a solution? If the cars had the DRS open all the time, then corners would again become challenging, braking distances would increase, and drivers would have to be sensitive to tyre performance due to the likelihood of the rear sliding now and again. It would appear that an open DRS doesn't suddenly make a F1 car "too" fast down a straight, and anyway, any increased top speed would have to be reduced earlier before the corner than now, and thus provide opportunities for late-breakers to pounce.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Firstly, F1 was starting to become joke in 94, and I now almost a complete joke.

is now


Also, I endorse MarkG's post.

[Peralta]

To me know, qualifying is more exciting to watch as the drivers are on the limit trying to out do each other where the race itself just becomes an endurance race with some tactics thrown in. Might as well watch endurance racing. Formula One should be about sprint races like in the past. No pitstops using only one set of tyres to start and finish the race. Go as fast as you can for an hour an a half of racing.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Peralta

To me know, qualifying is more exciting to watch as the drivers are on the limit trying to out do each

That's fine.

Originally Posted by Peralta

other where the race itself just becomes an endurance race with some tactics thrown in. Might as well watch endurance racing.

Ahh, but you see, 300kms is an endurance race. You're not the first person I've come across with similar opinion to yours. However, I've never heard anyone say a GP should be 200kms<.

Originally Posted by Peralta

Formula One should be about sprint races like in the past. No pitstops using only one set of tyres to start and finish the race. Go as fast as you can for an hour an a half of racing.

If you're meaning pre-94 F1, I'm not sure what you are talking about. In theory (taking away mandatory fuel or marshmallow tyre stops) one of the reasons why I think F1 would be a hard form of motorsport (probably the hardest), is because you'd have to apply endurance race tactics because of the length of the race, and bring a sprint race mentality. Because 300kms, while it may be an endurance race, for a professional level, is a short endurance race. It would be difficult to manage that for both driver and team.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Firstly, F1 was starting to become joke in 94, and I now almost a complete joke. F1/car racing was never about who is the fastest driver out on the track in the first place. F1/car racing is about "car" racing. There's not much skill to passing anyway. Typically, if your car is faster, passing is easy, even if it's relatively.

"Drivers slowing down to preserve fuel and tires so not really racing is it?" It is if it means finishing the race and getting a win or a good result. Either build a better car or implement better tactics. Team orders to hold station exemplifies the fact that car racing is indeed not about the driver, but it is about "cars". 20 years from now fans will be whinging about how boring F1/car racing is.

"We have the best driver talent on the greed than any time in the history of F1" That is not a definitive statement. It can definitely be argued.

What??? Who?


Eau Rouge used to be a corner which challenged the drivers and dared them to go harder. Nowadays it doesn't. Might as well pave over it and have a genuine straight from La Source to Les Combes.

No.

I'm afraid your post is a bit inaccurate in places.

1) Even with a faster car, passing is very difficult due to aerodynamic effects.
2) We probably do have the best talent on the grid than ever before.
3) Eau Rouge is STILL a very scary difficult corner, even in an F1 car.
4) Aero means cars are VERY fast round a winding circuit. People want to watch fast cars round a circuit (or they would just watch dragsters). Make them slower, people won't be so interested in watching. Which is why club racing and almost anything except F1 has terrible audience figures.

[Marbot]

If you have fuel and tyres to last to the end of the race, then it won't be too long before you can see who is going to win that race, barring mechanical failure, or driver error, both of which are rare these days. Only if you have extremely durable tyres that provide no benefit to any of the teams with regard to performance and durability, would that sort of racing format work at all.

[kartincolin]

A lot of people seem to have a strong hatred for DRS in particular, and are arguing that the tyres that we have at the moment that degrad at the rate they do are sufficient for close racing.

GP2 at the moment is what F1 would be like with no DRS, but I magine retaining KERS would make little difference. In the last few laps of a race, it usually comes alive with the drivers who had saved their tyres making an assault for position which usually leads to some extremely enjoyable racing. Not to mention, the overtakes that are made are genuine and are not aided by the use of an aerodynamic stalling device.

In saying all that though, Formula 1 is as exciting now as it`s ever been. Despite having a couple of drivers who don`t deserve to be there on merit, the level of talent in the field is still extremely high. You get a substantial amount of wheel to wheel racing and the outcome of the race is very rarely finalized before the last round of stops.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by kartincolin

In saying all that though, Formula 1 is as exciting now as it`s ever been. Despite having a couple of drivers who don`t deserve to be there on merit, the level of talent in the field is still extremely high. You get a substantial amount of wheel to wheel racing and the outcome of the race is very rarely finalized before the last round of stops.

F1 has always been exciting, even in TGF era, one would say. TV figures and all stats can prove that... this point is a matter of taste, right now Australia might be trashing F1 as much Germany is "excited"

[kartincolin]

I can only imagine the negative press that F1 is currently getting Down Under!

[Scooter185]

There's no such thing as negative press, it will just drive more people to watch China to see what happens between Mark and Seb

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

There's no such thing as negative press, it will just drive more people to watch China to see what happens between Mark and Seb

Very true, and I imagine Red Bull marketing bods will be delighted with recent events and the publicity.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

There's no such thing as negative press, it will just drive more people to watch China to see what happens between Mark and Seb

If they are together on the race track, I wouldn't be expecting very much in the way of racing, unless it happens to be that one of the drivers has been ordered to let the other driver by to atone for an earlier transgression.

I can hardly stand the excitement of it all.

[Purist]

I'm just going to try and plunk everything down in here.

1. There is a middle ground on tires. They don't need to last the entire race, but pitting after only 4-6 laps is just ridiculous. I think the softer of the compound choice should last the first 10-15 laps, depending on the circuit. The harder compound should, obviously, last longer, but not so long that you can do a race on just one stop.

2. I'm starting to think that no pit-to-car radio would be a good thing. Use the pit boards. Also, maybe have two lights on the wheel that can be activated by someone in the pits. One would light up to tell you if a puncture has been detected. The other would light up if it is confirmed that the car has sustained damage. (I'm just thinking out loud on these.)

3. Would allowing three-car teams dilute these situations? It could force both the teams and the drivers to have a more split focus, and not be able to just direct issues in a strictly back-and-forth manner.

4. I think it's safe to say that Webber's tenure at Red Bull is counting down. Any thoughts on who a replacement might be? Despite the reserve driver, and Toro Rosso, I somehow suspect that Red Bull might try to snag either Adrian Sutil or Nico Hulkenburg (no prizes for guessing why I put down those two names).

5. People want to see these cars go fast, and that includes in the corners. There need to be some limitations, clearly, or the cars would be humanly undriveable at some stage. However, it's partly the tightness of the regulations that ha led to these ultra-refined, ultra-sensitive aerodynamics on the cars now. These aerodynamics also happen to be quite inefficient, producing quite a lot of drag for how much downforce they generate. Simpler, more effective wings would help. Narrower front wings would be good also. And I know I've said this before, but use the undertray more to aid with the turbulence issue.

6. Those criticizing qualifying are missing a major point. Just because a car can lay down a blistering single lap, it does NOT mean that it will be competitive over a full run. The cars will change as the tires wear, and as the fuel burns off. People just seem to forget this all too often.

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Marbot

If they are together on the race track, I wouldn't be expecting very much in the way of racing, unless it happens to be that one of the drivers has been ordered to let the other driver by to atone for an earlier transgression.

I can hardly stand the excitement of it all.

This is a likely and logical possibility, but if the media down under is anything like here in the States, that possibility will never be mentioned.

Re: Mark Webbers tenure at RBR, maybe those Porsche LMP1 rumors are going to turn out to be true.