Historic replicas. A sensible discussion please

[gt917]

Who owns what, what is under the skin, how old, race history and where do you compete with it now ???

Problems, issues, HTP papers.

Sensible ,constructive posts please.

[Al Weyman]

I think if we talk replica saloons I think providing its built from an original shell or road car I cannot see a problem. If replica sports cars I simply dont know enough about the subject apart from the fact I do recollect the subframes on Nathan cars being brazed together as mig and tig I dont think were around in those days so obviously a replica T70 or something just must be superior in some way or another however minor.

[terence]

Now I wonder where this idea sprang from?

[Tim Falce]

[Clive Brown]

I would bet a pound to a pinch of poo that there is no prospect whatsoever of getting any form of sensible constructive discussion about replicas....

[john ruston]

Is a sensible discussion one that the contributors agree with the philosophy of allowing replicas,re-engineered,copy or any other name you want to call them being involved on an equal basis with cars with continuous history?

Can't see it happening as people have entrench views which have been widely discussed on here.

Best of luck!

[gt917]

Originally Posted by gt917

Who owns what, what is under the skin, how old, race history and where do you compete with it now ???

Problems, issues, HTP papers.

Sensible ,constructive posts please.

As hard as i look at the original question, i,ll be damned if i can see any where that it says that contributors have to agree with the philosophy of racing replicas. It also does not ask for a discussion on the rights or wrongs of them.

Specsavers do free eye tests .....

Tim, as a moderator and replica owner your "icon only" reply tells no one anything, and i always thought your car had quite a race history since its build. Do you not race it anymore?

[SAMD]

This may be the place to mention this, I have an early 70s clubmans car it is a formula 1300 car-rear engined, with a hewland mk8. it is a bit unusual as I know of no others in Ireland and very few in England of that type. However, the chassis, although freshly blasted and powder coated is a bit wrinkly in places and I have decided to have a new one built inc. wishbones. It will be an exact replacement of the original except for a higher roll bar and the wishbone mountings are a bit safer. I will probably have moulds made of the original body and make a new body for the new car as the original is a bit tatty. All other parts will be reused ie: shocks, springs, brakes, steering, engine/box etc. The car will no doubt be slightly heavier than the original but it does have more power so... It is eligible to race in Ireland and other places in historics and I intend to have an RAC log book made for the car, but no HTPs.

Question.. is this a (relatively) sensible notion or does a new chassis and new body constitute a replica? And would a car be devalued as a result! I will still have the original stuff anyway.

[delta]

Im guessing you have the WEV then."worms eye view".

[Robyn Slater]

Personally i believe "racing cars",historic or new,should be continuously developed and improved.

If you want to own/race an original car thats ok with me.

If you want to protect your "investment" perhaps you should keep it in a museum.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by gt917

Tim, as a moderator and replica owner your "icon only" reply tells no one anything, and i always thought your car had quite a race history since its build. Do you not race it anymore?

It's a popcorn icon Graham, I'm sitting waiting for the *****ing to start....oh it already has and we only got to six or seven posts.

Yes I do still race my car, you saw it earlier in the year at the 360. BTW my car isn't a kit, it's a production car that raced in a one type series in the eighties.

Originally Posted by SAMD

This may be the place to mention this, I have an early 70s clubmans car it is a formula 1300 car-rear engined, with a hewland mk8. it is a bit unusual as I know of no others in Ireland and very few in England of that type. However, the chassis, although freshly blasted and powder coated is a bit wrinkly in places and I have decided to have a new one built inc. wishbones. It will be an exact replacement of the original except for a higher roll bar and the wishbone mountings are a bit safer. I will probably have moulds made of the original body and make a new body for the new car as the original is a bit tatty. All other parts will be reused ie: shocks, springs, brakes, steering, engine/box etc. The car will no doubt be slightly heavier than the original but it does have more power so... It is eligible to race in Ireland and other places in historics and I intend to have an RAC log book made for the car, but no HTPs.

Question.. is this a (relatively) sensible notion or does a new chassis and new body constitute a replica? And would a car be devalued as a result! I will still have the original stuff anyway.

I've heard (I can't confirm however) that there are a few very expensive cars such as Dtypes etc racing that have replica bodies and chassis with original running gear attached and the original bodies are tucked safely away in storage. They run HTP papers, as if they are the original car, in the historic series' so what's the difference?

[Colin McKay]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I've heard (I can't confirm however) that there are a few very expensive cars such as Dtypes etc racing that have replica bodies and chassis with original running gear attached and the original bodies are tucked safely away in storage. They run HTP papers, as if they are the original car, in the historic series' so what's the difference?

I had a conversation with a D-type owner racing at the 2010 Classic and he explained that this was the case with his car, not unusual I think.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by delta

Im guessing you have the WEV then."worms eye view".

Wasn't the WEV a F4 - or was there an earlier version?


F4 WEV, Cadwell Park, 1985 by Alansart, on Flickr

[john ruston]

So if you develop a historic car it is no longer historic?
People race cars with replacement parts whilst the original bits hang on the wall.
Think that it works if car is shown as having a continuous history .
If you want to race a replica no problems as long as its a replica in all aspects including mechanical not just a look alike.

[Simon Hadfield]

The term replica is a most overused term. As its dictionary definition states - "Replica, an EXACT copy......a duplicate of an original artistic work" - unless a car is just that it is not a replica. At best it may be, to quote the latest auction speak, an "evocation" and I don't think historic racing is the place for these cars. There is however always somewhere to race virtually whatever your car, you just have to find that place.

[Peter Mallett]

Frazer Nash actually marketed a TT Replica. Nice looking car too. Most of us race replicas. Both my Capri and the MGB are replicas (they started life as road cars). In fact the Capri may be more "original" than many because it is built out of a 1600 shell, which is actually what CC Racing did because Ford had no spare 3.0 shells. However the significance is that they are built using the same engines and running gear as was available and used by the teams in their day.

That said, I see no harm in people racing facsimiles, which may be a better term. The look of a GT40, D Type or 917 is timeless, so when I see one being exercised I don't ask for provenance.

[R D P]

From "Directory of Historic Racing Cars" by Denis Jenkinson - Jenks´ definition of the different terms :

"Original

Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as “nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on, and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.

Genuine

This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.

Authentic

This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.

Resurrection

Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the graveyard.


Re-construction

This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.

Facsimile

Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.

Special

This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.

Duplication

This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.

Destroyed

A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.

Scrapped

This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

Broken up

Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

Converted

There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to R4B."

His thoughts regarding "Replicas have been marked red above.


Note - in Jenks´time the term "Evocation" was not yet used...

Ralf

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The term replica is a most overused term. As its dictionary definition states - "Replica, an EXACT copy......a duplicate of an original artistic work" - unless a car is just that it is not a replica. At best it may be, to quote the latest auction speak, an "evocation" and I don't think historic racing is the place for these cars. There is however always somewhere to race virtually whatever your car, you just have to find that place.

So a vast majority of Lotus Cortina are Evocations . . . they're not Lotus built cars, they have virtually no original Ford parts, or Lotus parts for that matter and bear little to no resemblance to what was raced back in the day.

The same applies to most front running saloons and a majority of production GT's. I mean, why bother restoring a Lotus elan or a TVR Griffith when everything you need, stronger better and lighter is merely a phone call away.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Wasn't the WEV a F4 - or was there an
earlier version?


F4 WEV, Cadwell Park, 1985 by Alansart, on Flickr

A similar car to mine, it does look slightly more modern, although that may be the bodywork only.

Hanging the original chassis and body up somewhere does seem quite sensible.

[Tim Falce]

Graham, I'm sorry to say this thread has gone exactly as Clive predicted and as I thought it would, Clive do you want the pound or poo? I doubt you'll get any sensible discussion without your thread being hijacked as it has.

[Alan Morgan]

From memory, the original WEV (Worm's Eye View) was a F1300 car with a very long history. I remember it racing when Iain and I were doing F4 in the Seventies.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

I would bet a pound to a pinch of poo that there is no prospect whatsoever of getting any form of sensible constructive discussion about replicas....

Although, if one gives it some thought, they are just modsports or modsaloons really. And we all like them. Don't we?

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Graham, I'm sorry to say this thread has gone exactly as Clive predicted and as I thought it would, Clive do you want the pound or poo?

I'd better have the pound. I would have asked for the poo, so that I could have thrown some on all of the fake lightweight 1964ish Ford Falcon Sprints that are out there, but I realised only too late that there are so many, that a pound of poo, never mind the pinch that I initially requested, would not suffice.

[Simon Hadfield]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

So a vast majority of Lotus Cortina are Evocations . . . they're not Lotus built cars, they have virtually no original Ford parts, or Lotus parts for that matter and bear little to no resemblance to what was raced back in the day.

The same applies to most front running saloons and a majority of production GT's. I mean, why bother restoring a Lotus elan or a TVR Griffith when everything you need, stronger better and lighter is merely a phone call away.

Then, Joe, the organiser has the right to accept or otherwise the car (or cars). One of the issues behind historic racing is that we can't not know what we know, I am sure you wouldn't even contemplate using the porting that was considered state of the art in 1963.
As to the state of this discussion, in what way is it falling apart? It would seem to be a sound attempt to discuss the pros and cons raised by the issue of replicas in historic racing - is the problem the fact that some people have an opposing point of view? I can guarantee that in a paddock of 300 drivers there will be 300 views of what historic racing should represent and how it should be run - and all 300 views would be the only correct way!

[gt917]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Graham, I'm sorry to say this thread has gone exactly as Clive predicted and as I thought it would, Clive do you want the pound or poo? I doubt you'll get any sensible discussion without your thread being hijacked as it has.

Whoa there Tim,

Don,t you dare give that pound away yet, as it would seem that the original questions i asked are slowly,very slowly, beginning to appear. (and incidentally i never said your car was a kit. Thank heavens for John and Julian creating that series and those cars .... wish it were still going)

However, i must emphasize that I did not ask the rights or wrongs of replicas.

I asked a totally different question in the real hope i would get sensible replies and it not be the same old sarcasms from the same people.

Who has what, where do they race, have they obtained any papers, etc,etc.

Simon Hadfield is not correct in saying there is a place for every car to race. He has no idea just how few good races there are for us non original race car owners to enter and that is why i am always looking and hoping, and the main reason for posing this question and trying to flush other owners out of the woodwork. Perhaps he can tell me and the others what and where these events are that we are eligible for.... and i don,t mean some little ten lap Formula Libra infill race. We don,t play at racing and our cars can be just as fast and visually appealling, as well as having the inherent risk of the "originals".

To add one interesting point to this discussion, i have lost count of the number of email and personal requests i have had to race the 917, a few less in the 40, but nearly all from historic race car owners !! Strange that.