[DTM] The final breath!?

[10tacle]

At the german motorsport portal "Motorsport-Total" you can find rumors about a new Manufacture that maybe will join the DTM. Citroen, Infinity an Jaguar are the options. If i remeber, Citroen says a few month ago that the DTM is no opinion. Infinity will capture the europeen market and planning a 5year motorsport engagement, but DTM i don't know :/
Jaguar with new holder Tata have a lot money... and with the Jaguar XF a compatible car.

I don't like the new DTM and i hope this will be the last attemps before the series gonna die.
Maybe they will be found a new new DTM without ITR and HWA.

What do you think guys?

[duke_toaster]

Jaguar might be an appropriate make for it, but I'm not sure how much Tata know about motorsport. I don't even think Germany is a big market for them though (but feel free to correct me). Especially when they are doing a GT3 programme.

If DTM dies (which is possible but not particularly likely), I'm not sure what will replace it - I think in the current economic climate and car buying trends, I think we might see ADAC Procar becoming the DTM or the teams simply going in to the WTCC or something ...

[10tacle]

Most germans don't like the motorsport fighting like we see it at S2000 Racing or V8 Supercars, they like the show and the spectacular cars. Pro Car will never become nearly the same status like DTM. Sad but true... :/

The ITR and HWA guys always get too big for one's boots, they always wanna have the bigger, better, faster Series but don't realize that they exclude herself more and more and the whole thing is getting more expensive and more and more boring. And the corny joke, they wonder why there is no other manufacture....

a few month ago the talked about to change the rules like the V8Star Series long ago. a few years ago Hans Werner Aufrecht talked about the V8Star rules as they are absolute nonsense... now they wanna change to this nonsense... these guys are senile.

If they wanna have an upper class TouringCar Championship they must put a pool together with other Associations and then they will maybe find a good solution. For Example an V8 Supercars adaption, this series ist cheaper, more spectacular, more competitive, .....

i loved the old DTM from 1990 till 1996 and watched a few races live then, that was really good motorsport. But with the introduction of the Class 1 Cars the sands were running out (but i loved the Class 1 anyway )

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

i loved the old DTM from 1990 till 1996 and watched a few races live then

the 2000-2005 era was fantastic too, when Opel raced there, now it is very very boring

[Bramzel]

Jaguar won't enter DTM, they're expected to return to LeMans in 2010 or 2011.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by 10tacle

Maybe they will be found a new new DTM without ITR and HWA.

DTM without Mercedes? You need to destroy all german motorsport to get this situation

I think Jaguar won't enter DTM, we can expect Toyota/Lexus, may be Honda/Acura, may be Citroen, if the decide to leave WRC, may be BMW, if they decide to leave WTCC.

[Ellmau]

But in the end, there will be no manufacturer that will want to get on board of the sinking ship

[Bramzel]

DTM first needs to get the show back on the rails. Make the championship attractive again and fun to watch, then other manufacturers will join the fun. The Aussie V8's show that its very possible to have a highly attractive championship which is fun to watch with only 2 brands.

[Ellmau]

Problem is that they only want to get the show back on the rails (change the regs) when an other manufacturer enters. First harvest, then sow.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

Problem is that they only want to get the show back on the rails (change the regs) when an other manufacturer enters. First harvest, then sow.

OTOH, what manufacturer would dare enter DTM without being allowed to rewrite a lot of the rulebook?

[JMeissner]

Thats why we could expect new entries 2010/11 when the new rules should arrive.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Thats why we could expect new entries 2010/11 when the new rules should arrive.

Make that "when" an "if". There's talk about new rules in DTM since I don't know when, and I am really doubtful that anything will happen in the next few years.
Right now there aren't even rumours about what a new ruleset could look like anymore.

And then there's the problem with Audi and Mercs product cycles being out of phase, so when a rule-change comes one of those will get the short end of the stick as they'll have to retire a new or realtively new car.
That's another reason, why they are only willing to have new rules when a new manufacturer comes in.

[Dead-Eye]

The solution for that would be a spec chassis with silhouettes. Not that I'd like to see that, but since the cars are prototypes anyway they might as well go down that route.

[The SpeCTator]

Difficult to find anything that is so expensive and so tedious and boring
RIP

[10tacle]

@The SpeCTator
Formula 1

the only thing that works well is the marketing, still too many people likes that crap.

[stedevil]

Have to agree there, a DTM race has at least as much overtaking and action as a F1 race and the cost is still a lot less.

And as long as the DTM marketing can keep filling up the seats with PAYING customers, far beyond any other TC or GT related series, DTM is not going to die, whatever we motorsports fanatics might think of it. As long as the average guy on the street is going to PAY for watching it, it's sure as hell aint going away.

PS personally I do like both DTM and F1, and happily see that both IMO are taking the right steps for the future (finally, and a lot slower then I would like, but at least it's the right direction...)

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Have to agree there, a DTM race has at least as much overtaking and action as a F1 race and the cost is still a lot less.

And as long as the DTM marketing can keep filling up the seats with PAYING customers, far beyond any other TC or GT related series, DTM is not going to die, whatever we motorsports fanatics might think of it. As long as the average guy on the street is going to PAY for watching it, it's sure as hell aint going away.

PS personally I do like both DTM and F1, and happily see that both IMO are taking the right steps for the future (finally, and a lot slower then I would like, but at least it's the right direction...)

Agreed.
I much rather watch DTM than any of the S2000 series. Shure overtaking is important but it's not everything.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

Agreed.
I much rather watch DTM than any of the S2000 series. Shure overtaking is important but it's not everything.

The problem is: DTM sucks in nearly all areas that usually make touring car racing great. It's not just overtaking, but also the lack of variety, the lack of privateers and the confusion about who will be able to fight for the lead until the end of the pitstops.

DTM is like a very beautiful, but appallingly stupid and dull girl. There are boys who like this kind of girls, I don't.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The problem is: DTM sucks in nearly all areas that usually make touring car racing great. It's not just overtaking, but also the lack of variety, the lack of privateers and the confusion about who will be able to fight for the lead until the end of the pitstops.

DTM is like a very beautiful, but appallingly stupid and dull girl. There are boys who like this kind of girls, I don't.

How could anyone reply to that comparison
Yeah I know there are many things wrong with DTM, I'm just really hoping it can be turned in to something good and not die or become another S2000 series beacuse I think there are many things wrong with for example WTCC as well.

[JamesRamone]

They need a format change. I liked it when they had a qualification race a few years back. Less pitstops are needed, and another manufacturer, or some privateers entering. It used to be my second favourite racing series to follow, however i've just skipped through the races using sky plus this year, which is a shame.

[FIRE]

I want the Ruch brothers with their Mustangs back!

[helgi]

Well,there's something to change in current DTM. For example,stupid second pit-stop. But this breath is not last at all. Till there's Germany with it's huge automotive industry and great engineering school there'll be DTM,no matter if REAL RACING fans want it or not. DTM can be closed for some years but it'll reborn in any way. The greatest advantage of DTM is it's fairness. Everybody is playing the same rules. And the winner is the best pilot at the moment,with the best car at the moment. Not the lightest car on the grid. No wonder,if s2000 usually has tight races. During 20 minutes of race with technically different cars, equalized with huge weight differences it MUST have battles,even if pilots are not equalized. For me,an engineer,it's impossible to imagine,that a standart diesel bus is able to beat BMW 320. So,change the header for the topic. It's another championship which has it's final breath.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by helgi

Well,there's something to change in current DTM. For example,stupid second pit-stop.

What about the stupid first pit-stop?

Originally Posted by helgi

The greatest advantage of DTM is it's fairness.

Last year everybody complained about the unfairness in DTM (e.g. drivers blocking other drivers that had already stopped, Barcelona incidents etc). That hasn't changed too much if you ask me.

Originally Posted by helgi

And the winner is the best pilot at the moment,with the best car at the moment. Not the lightest car on the grid.

How do you know? DTM has success ballast as well.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helgi

DTM can be closed for some years but it'll reborn in any way.

There was a time when GT-cars were king in Germany, and I think this time could come again, if DTM fails for whatever reason.

Here's a quote from ADAC-GT-Masters-driver Marc Henerici:

The circumstances at the Norisring[DTM-round] were of course very, very bad. [Our race] was moved to 6PM, to make sure that no spectators could see it, as we could have upstaged them, what we clearly did. Hundreds of spectators came to me and said "Wow, your cars and your series are so great".

DTM is afraid of the GT-Masters series, and I think they have every reason to be.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

Last year everybody complained about the unfairness in DTM (e.g. drivers blocking other drivers that had already stopped, Barcelona incidents etc). That hasn't changed too much if you ask me.

I would actually say quite the opposite. The sportmanship has taken a huge step forward and this season has seen almost none of the BS we had all last year. In fact, many times we have seen fair fights, not only between both brands, but even true fight for position among both Audi and Merc -08 drivers of the same team.

For the other points brought up by helgi, Im as confused as you. DTM has 40kg max ballast, WTCC 70, is it that 30kg that makes a world of difference? And for further fairness... only 8 drivers have -08 cars, and drivers withold cars, even thoug given further weight compensations (incidentally reaching the 70kg of WTCC...) dont really have any fair chance to win the championship. More then 8 drivers have a shot at the crown in WTCC...

And the comment of SEAT buses... eeehh... it's AUDI engeneers that pioneered the diesels as true raceing performance engines, and there is hardly much doubt in that it's the AUDI expertice that is behind the SEAT diesel racing engines.