Rating Driver Ability Despite Differing Equipment (Moved from W v V thread)

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by mac

Clearly, they have THE BEST driver combination on the grid at the moment.

In your opinion.

Trying to figure out what is the best driver combination or indeed who is the best driver in F1 is really rather difficult.Maybe the drivers championship should be fought out in GP2 cars and the manufacturers championship should be fought out in the cars that the teams actually build,only driven by FIA spec Robots.It's an option...we can go that way if we want.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

In your opinion.

Trying to figure out what is the best driver combination or indeed who is the best driver in F1 is really rather difficult.Maybe the drivers championship should be fought out in GP2 cars and the manufacturers championship should be fought out in the cars that the teams actually build,only driven by FIA spec Robots.It's an option...we can go that way if we want.

If you actually watch the Grands Prix and know what to look for, it is not difficult to see who the best drivers are, differing equipment notwithstanding.

[Splatz the Cow]

Super H - I completely agree.

I've been waiting years for someone else to make the point you have.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

If you actually watch the Grands Prix and know what to look for, it is not difficult to see who the best drivers are, differing equipment notwithstanding.

And therein lies the problem.

It's so obvious to some,not so to others.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

And therein lies the problem.

It's so obvious to some,not so to others.

The point I'm making is that it is possible to watch someone drive and make a judgement on their ability, regardless of the quality of the car. You frequently suggest that it is impossible to order the drivers in terms of ability because they all drive different cars. I fundamentally disagree with you.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

The point I'm making is that it is possible to watch someone drive and make a judgement on their ability, regardless of the quality of the car.

Some cars will help a drivers ability and some will take away from a drivers abilty.I'm sure that Fisi is wondering what the hell has happened between Sunday afternoon at Spa and now.

Originally Posted by Super Hans

You frequently suggest that it is impossible to order the drivers in terms of ability because they all drive different cars. I fundamentally disagree with you.

Sebastian Bourdais is a much better driver than the STR made him look,and while I'm no fan of the often whiny French bloke,I do think that his abilities were hampered by a car that just didn't suit his driving style.

Interestingly enough he's now back to his winning ways in Superleague.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Some cars will help a drivers ability and some will take away from a drivers abilty.I'm sure that Fisi is wondering what the hell has happened between Sunday afternoon at Spa and now.

It is obvious what has happened. He has gone from driving a well-sorted car which suited his style to a difficult-to-handle car, in which he's had no testing. Still, the fact that his results have fluctuated in different cars doesn't mean I can't make a judgement about his abilities based on watching him drive.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It is obvious what has happened. He has gone from driving a well-sorted car which suited his style to a difficult-to-handle car, in which he's had no testing. Still, the fact that his results have fluctuated in different cars doesn't mean I can't make a judgement about his abilities based on watching him drive.

What's your verdict on Sutil then? Where would he come in your list of F1 drivers.


And, out if interest, after your claim: Could you possibly rank the entire current F1 grid? Could be interesting to know how you see the field.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Satorian

Could you possibly rank the entire current F1 grid?

Most peoples top four would be extremely varied,never mind ordering twenty odd!

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Satorian

What's your verdict on Sutil then?

Top 15, maybe top 8 if he can eradicate the errors. He's certainly quick on his day, but a little erratic.

Originally Posted by Satorian

Could you possibly rank the entire current F1 grid? Could be interesting to know how you see the field.

I could have a go, but (a) I'm a bit busy at the minute and (b) it would take the thread too far off-topic.

Perhaps I'll start a new thread later.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Top 15, maybe top 8 if he can eradicate the errors. He's certainly quick on his day, but a little erratic.

Interesting,because many who have followed his career see him as the equal of Hamilton (however 'equal' he is) if only he had the car to show it in.

I remember a certain Mr Alonso having quite a number of 'offs' in his Minardi days,but he was trying that little bit harder against his 'top drawer' team mates I guess.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Interesting,because many who have followed his career see him as the equal of Hamilton (however 'equal' he is) if only he had the car to show it in.

Hmm...if only they had the same car.

F3 Euroseries 2005
Lewis Hamilton (ASM) 15 wins, 11 poles.
Adrian Sutil (ASM) 1 win, 2 poles.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Hmm...if only they had the same car.

But were they?

Yeah,'Team Hamilton' did stirling work there.

I remember Hamilton paying Sutil a 'back-handed' compliment by saying that he expected Sutil to be as quick if not quicker than he was when he got to F1.I wonder why?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

But were they?

Why wouldn't they be?

Originally Posted by Marbot

I remember Hamilton paying Sutil a 'back-handed' comment by saying that he expected Sutil to be as quick if not quicker than he was when he got to F1.I wonder why?

Because he wanted to big-up his best friend?

[jab]

Who said about ranking the grid?

It depends on what you're ranking on. I don't think you can do a set definitive order. But I think you can group them, although bear in mind the groups are quite close together

Level 1 - the complete package
Alonso
Hamilton

Level 2 - generally very good, and have cut it in all types of machinery, although still question marks about certain aspects
Vettel (pushing into Level 1 now if he cuts out his mistakes)
Kubica
Webber
Raikkonen
Massa
Rosberg

Level 3 - often only good in a brilliant car, or haven't yet had the chance to prove themselves in a good car, or at their best in a poor car
Heidfeld
Sutil
Button
Trulli
Glock
Barrichello
Liuzzi
Fisichella
Buemi
Kovalainen

Level 4 - strugglers, pay drivers and the like
Nakajima

Not had enough time to judge Alguersuari, Grosjean or Kobayashi

But this is an overall thing. If you went on outright pace alone you'd get a different order. Such things are open to debate

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Why wouldn't they be?

I don't know,you'd have to ask 'Team Hamilton' that one.

It was genuinely thought (up until then) that both drivers were pretty equal.

We should also remember that Jamie Green (Who!? I hear you cry) was the previous years EURO F3 series champion with seven wins and seven other podiums,but where is he now?

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Because he wanted to big-up his best friend?

I can see why another driver would want to make all others look like genuine threats.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I don't know,you'd have to ask 'Team Hamilton' that one.

It was genuinely thought (up until then) that both drivers were pretty equal.

We should also remember that Jamie Green (Who!? I hear you cry) was the previous years EURO F3 series champion with seven wins and seven other podiums,but where is he now?

What on earth does Jamie Green have to do with it? You claimed that 'those in the know' believe that Sutil and Hamilton are fairly equal, a claim easily refuted by their performance as team-mates in F3 and, indeed, by studying their F1 performances.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

Who said about ranking the grid?

I have doubts about Hamilton being "the complete package",and some doubts about Alonso being able to deal with 'equal' team mates.

No surprise to see Webber ahead of Button there.

What is Webber doing in your second group?

Why are you using those criterior to define "groups"?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

What on earth does Jamie Green have to do with it?.

It just goes to show that if your face doesn't fit...........

Originally Posted by Super Hans

You claimed that 'those in the know' believe that Sutil and Hamilton are fairly equal, a claim easily refuted by their performance as team-mates in F3 and, indeed, by studying their F1 performances.

Yes,there are those 'in the know' that do claim this.

I never actually claimed that he was his 'equal' myself.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

Level 2 - [I]generally very good, and have cut it in all types of machinery, although still question marks about certain aspects

I would certainly put Hamilton and Alonso in with this crowd,and some of the ones in that crowd would go into the group below.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Marbot

What is Webber doing in your second group?

Why not? He's matched or beaten every team mate he's faced - including Vettel, who everyone think is the new Messiah. He's won 2 races fair and square. He's proven his ability in every single car he's driven - and that goes from this year's top class Red Bull to the dreadful 2006 Williams and the 2002 Minardi. He's fast. He's consistent

There's no reason why he shouldn't be considered alongside the likes of Raikkonen, Massa and co now. He's done everything he could do now other than win the title

In fact, I feel bad leaving Heidfeld out of Level 2 too because he's beaten or matched all his team mates, including Kubica, Webber, Massa and Raikkonen. The only things that let him down is his quali pace and the fact that he bottled it last year when he had a good car

Meanwhile, Button's struggled to beat an old Brazilian and has been rubbish in underperforming machinery for years. There's no comparison. Give the Brawn to any of those drivers in level 1 and 2 and not only will they have won the title, but they will have won it earlier and more comfortably

The best drivers get the most out of any car they drive, be it a tailender or a dominant force. Button hasn't got the most out of the Brawn this year, as proven on several occasions by Barrichello. Therefore he can't be considered on the same level as the drivers I've listed above him

Originally Posted by Marbot

I would certainly put Hamilton and Alonso in with this crowd,and some of the ones in that crowd would go into the group below.

Why? It's quite clear that Lewis and Alonso are a cut above. They are in a different league - not by much but they're clearly better

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by jab

Who said about ranking the grid?

It depends on what you're ranking on. I don't think you can do a set definitive order. But I think you can group them, although bear in mind the groups are quite close together

Level 1 - the complete package
Alonso
Hamilton

Level 2 - generally very good, and have cut it in all types of machinery, although still question marks about certain aspects
Vettel (pushing into Level 1 now if he cuts out his mistakes)
Kubica
Webber
Raikkonen
Massa
Rosberg

Level 3 - often only good in a brilliant car, or haven't yet had the chance to prove themselves in a good car, or at their best in a poor car
Heidfeld
Sutil
Button
Trulli
Glock
Barrichello
Liuzzi
Fisichella
Buemi
Kovalainen

Level 4 - strugglers, pay drivers and the like
Nakajima

Not had enough time to judge Alguersuari, Grosjean or Kobayashi

But this is an overall thing. If you went on outright pace alone you'd get a different order. Such things are open to debate

Wow... that's quite a way to rank those drivers. Which formula did you use to accomplish that ? What were the requirements to select and put a driver into a level ?

[Taprobane]

Why is it quite clear? But for some poor reliability Kimi could be three time world champ now, would you still think he was a 'level 2' driver then?

Personally I think that the top guys are all so close to one another the biggest factor is who can get a car which suits their driving style.

[strider]

It's a shame that this article by Mark Hughes is on the subscription side of autosport.com, but if you can read it I recommend you to do so.

It explains a huge amount about Schumi's retirement, Kimi's arrival, why the Ferrari is more suited to Massa, why it was Kimi's fault for not being more insistent in his demands and why, ultimately, they felt they needed to replace him with Teflonso, but that his arrival will present a whole new challenge.

You may end up thinking that Luca di Montezemelo is a latter day Machiavelli and you would be about right.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by jab

Button's struggled to beat an old Brazilian and has been rubbish in underperforming machinery for years.

One could just as easily state that Webber beat a few tuggers (Pizzonia, Yoong...etc) and has struggled against a pair of bearded Germans.