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Old 27 Mar 2022, 22:14 (Ref:4104558)   #3926
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Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
The drivers are going to have decide themselves whether to give back a place with a marginal overtake cross kerbs white lines etc. as race control will no longer tell them . It will be the stewards who will decide if a driver has overstepped and not returned a place.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/wh...calls/9305406/


I am expecting some drivers will be regularly moaning about the penalties they get for using the outer edge of circuits.
This is probably a response to the talking and discussion last year over track limits and Masi trying to negotiate a standard and understanding the drivers agreed with.
Taking it right away from the race director and putting it in the hands of the stewards judgement call makes it black and white.
If in doubt, dont do it.
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Old 26 Apr 2022, 18:22 (Ref:4108144)   #3927
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The FIA have revealed their goals for the 2026 chassis rule changes:

1) Significantly reduced drag to improve sustainability and efficiency and complement the power unit characteristics.
2) Maintain and improve on recent lessons learned about close racing and cars being able to follow each other.
3) Reduce car dimensions.
4) Reduce or contain car mass.
5) Sustainability. Continue path towards the standardisation or simplification of strategically-selected components for cost-cutting purposes. Expand the usage of sustainable materials or technologies and focus on recyclability.
6) Continued innovation in terms of car safety, moving towards active and connected safety systems.

Some of the above have been discussed in this and other threads. Many objectives are well chosen I would say.

Regarding point 5 though, the wording of it is slightly alarming: "Reduce or contain car mass". If they were very serious about reducing car mass they would have not included the word "contain". I'm afraid based on this wording, the ambitions regarding weight reduction will be limited and other aspects will be given priority.
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Old 26 Apr 2022, 19:39 (Ref:4108157)   #3928
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4) Reduce or contain car mass.
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Regarding point 5 though, the wording of it is slightly alarming: "Reduce or contain car mass". If they were very serious about reducing car mass they would have not included the word "contain". I'm afraid based on this wording, the ambitions regarding weight reduction will be limited and other aspects will be given priority.
I assume you meant item four instead of five. To make it more alarming they could have worded it in the reverse... "Contain or reduce car mass" with the implication being that the more important is listed first. They listed "Reduce" first. I take it as an acknowledgement that reducing the minimum weight will be a challenge. The future power unit is potentially going to be simpler, but they are also likely to increase the size of the battery pack. Even today some teams are struggling with weight. Red Bull is saying they are 10 Kg over minimum today.

In short, they no doubt would like to reduce the weight, but maybe feel that the best they can do is stop it from growing.

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Old 27 Apr 2022, 05:27 (Ref:4108187)   #3929
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Regarding point 5 though, the wording of it is slightly alarming: "Reduce or contain car mass". If they were very serious about reducing car mass they would have not included the word "contain". I'm afraid based on this wording, the ambitions regarding weight reduction will be limited and other aspects will be given priority.
V8 cars were 642kg with a 95kg engine in 2013. In 2022, we have about 60kg of extra safety equipment than 2013, which of course cannot be removed from the car.

So even going back to 13" wheels (-18kg, and minus -5kg if you are happy with the narrower GP2-size tyres instead of the wider 2017 tyres) and V8 engines (-72kg), it won't be possible to get the weight much below 700kg.

[I'd like to see the front tyres go back to the historical size (245mm) and the rear tyres left at the historical size which they returned to (405mm) [fronts and rears were scaled up equally in 2017, even though only the rears were ever scaled down by the FIA in 1994 & 1998]... A more rearwards tyre distribution and therefore weight distribution should encourage shorter cars.]

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Old 27 Apr 2022, 08:43 (Ref:4108203)   #3930
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I assume you meant item four instead of five. To make it more alarming they could have worded it in the reverse... "Contain or reduce car mass" with the implication being that the more important is listed first. They listed "Reduce" first. I take it as an acknowledgement that reducing the minimum weight will be a challenge. The future power unit is potentially going to be simpler, but they are also likely to increase the size of the battery pack. Even today some teams are struggling with weight. Red Bull is saying they are 10 Kg over minimum today.

In short, they no doubt would like to reduce the weight, but maybe feel that the best they can do is stop it from growing.

Richard
Yes, sorry indeed point four. Well the current weight is the result of choices being made. Some being good (safety) and some less so (overly large tires and heavy drives trains). We will see how what they will decide, but if you include "to contain" in your goals, it signals a very limited ambition to really reduce weight and already create a situation where you say, oh well we tried, but to contain was the best we could do.

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V8 cars were 642kg with a 95kg engine in 2013. In 2022, we have about 60kg of extra safety equipment than 2013, which of course cannot be removed from the car.

So even going back to 13" wheels (-18kg, and minus -5kg if you are happy with the narrower GP2-size tyres instead of the wider 2017 tyres) and V8 engines (-72kg), it won't be possible to get the weight much below 700kg.

[I'd like to see the front tyres go back to the historical size (245mm) and the rear tyres left at the historical size which they returned to (405mm) [fronts and rears were scaled up equally in 2017, even though only the rears were ever scaled down by the FIA in 1994 & 1998]... A more rearwards tyre distribution and therefore weight distribution should encourage shorter cars.]
I reckon something between 685 and 725kg would be realistic with current safety standards if certain choices would be made regarding wheel and tire dimensions, car dimensions and drivetrain choices. One can hope, but I'm not too hopefully especially regarding drivetrain weight.

I must say that the stated ambition to reduce drag makes me slightly more hopeful because it would promote the return to smaller tires, smaller cars, less fuel/battery weight and less require power so lighter drivetrains. A reduction in drag often goes hand in hand with a reduction in weight.

This reduction of drag could also be achieved by an passive drag reduction system (as discussed here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156950) or an active drag reduction system. In the latter system, DRS would be always active on the straights, but if a car approaches from the rear and is within one second it won't engage. So as it were the reverse of the current DRS system, but with the same effect).
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Old 27 Apr 2022, 12:04 (Ref:4108229)   #3931
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I think F1 should at least try push-to-pass, as an alternative to DRS in one of the sprint races.
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Old 27 Apr 2022, 12:41 (Ref:4108234)   #3932
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We had push to pass with KERS and ERS, although that was quite different how it operated from actual push to pass. Either way DRS has to go. Sprint Races I can give or take, but they don't add much
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Old 27 Apr 2022, 12:49 (Ref:4108238)   #3933
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We had push to pass with KERS and ERS, although that was quite different how it operated from actual push to pass. Either way DRS has to go. Sprint Races I can give or take, but they don't add much

I am talking about push-to-pass as used in IndyCar, which is quite different.
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Old 30 Apr 2022, 17:04 (Ref:4108501)   #3934
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I don’t think we should use that system, drivers shouldn’t need it to pass
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Old 30 Apr 2022, 23:58 (Ref:4108533)   #3935
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I don’t think we should use that system, drivers shouldn’t need it to pass

It is used to good effect in IndyCar and it can be used to defend. If not then, what is the alternative?
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Old 1 May 2022, 12:45 (Ref:4108569)   #3936
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It’s fine in Indycar, but I don’t think it should be used in every series. In my view if the aero in F1 limited enough to encourage close racing, you don’t need a P2P number
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Old 2 May 2022, 12:14 (Ref:4108657)   #3937
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Surprise!

2026 rule changes mean we will get both Porsche and Audi entering F1.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/vw...cade/10266031/
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Old 2 May 2022, 13:08 (Ref:4108661)   #3938
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It’s fine in Indycar, but I don’t think it should be used in every series. In my view if the aero in F1 limited enough to encourage close racing, you don’t need a P2P number

No one is saying P2P should be in every series. However, F1 has just had a major change to the aero regs. So unless there are any further changes to aero on the horizon and there don't seem to be, what is the alternative to DRS?
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Old 3 May 2022, 10:47 (Ref:4108749)   #3939
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Out of curiosity - I took a trawl back through the depths of 10/10ths to see what was being discussed in 2000.

Guess what - the same complaints then.

21 Jun 2000 - Rule changes make overtaking easier?: 'Technical changes for 2001 could make passing less of a lost art.

Technical changes brought in for the 2001 Formula 1 season could make overtaking easier by reducing front-end downforce and aerodynamic sensitivity.

The series of changes, which also include enhanced driver protection, were unanimously agreed by the F1 teams and passed by the FIA World Council, motorsport’s rule-making body today (June 21).'


1 Jun 2000 - One year ago: 'Most of the drivers are complaining that Formula One is becoming boring and blames the few opportunities for overtaking for much of the lack of thrill.

They have asked for a serious overview of the technical regulations in an effort to bring back some thrill to the Formula One arena.
Former world champion Damon Hill said F1 team bosses should take the matter serious as the current regulations has taken the sport into a blind alley.'


22 May 2000 - More Passing?: 'We all know that F1 racing is becoming boring because of the lack of passing.
We know that taking of the wings and putting slicks on will make it better.'


The consensus at the time seemed to reach the view that:
  • We should go back to turbos and slicks and no driver aids at all.
  • NO refueling, better head protection structure & raise minimum weight.
  • A reduction in engine capacity.
  • Allow turbos with a reduced engine capacity.



    I think we are in a position where many of us can comment about what we think should be improved - but experience shows that we are not always right.....
  • Ban rear diffusers.
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Old 3 May 2022, 12:49 (Ref:4108767)   #3940
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Out of curiosity - I took a trawl back through the depths of 10/10ths to see what was being discussed in 2000.

Guess what - the same complaints then.

21 Jun 2000 - Rule changes make overtaking easier?: 'Technical changes for 2001 could make passing less of a lost art.

Technical changes brought in for the 2001 Formula 1 season could make overtaking easier by reducing front-end downforce and aerodynamic sensitivity.

The series of changes, which also include enhanced driver protection, were unanimously agreed by the F1 teams and passed by the FIA World Council, motorsport’s rule-making body today (June 21).'


1 Jun 2000 - One year ago: 'Most of the drivers are complaining that Formula One is becoming boring and blames the few opportunities for overtaking for much of the lack of thrill.

They have asked for a serious overview of the technical regulations in an effort to bring back some thrill to the Formula One arena.
Former world champion Damon Hill said F1 team bosses should take the matter serious as the current regulations has taken the sport into a blind alley.'


22 May 2000 - More Passing?: 'We all know that F1 racing is becoming boring because of the lack of passing.
We know that taking of the wings and putting slicks on will make it better.'


The consensus at the time seemed to reach the view that:
  • We should go back to turbos and slicks and no driver aids at all.
  • NO refueling, better head protection structure & raise minimum weight.
  • A reduction in engine capacity.
  • Allow turbos with a reduced engine capacity.



    I think we are in a position where many of us can comment about what we think should be improved - but experience shows that we are not always right.....
  • Ban rear diffusers.
I think the general view was (and has been for a long time) was to reduce aero grip and increase mechanical grip. With F1, the reality is, that nothing is that simple and if you took away all the aero grip necessary to "improve the racing", it would probably be as fast as an F3 car. I think F1 has probably done the right things (mostly) in terms of underbody aero, I don't think anyone suggested cars that were 200kgs heavier mind you, but I guess there are external forces at play which meant that was unavoidable to a degree.

I think what the 2001 article might have been alluding to (partly) was raising the front wing in order to reduce front downforce. This has been done several times over the years and each time it made the racing worse because the wing kept getting raised into further disturbed air. Everyone knows that the cleanest air behind a car is the air closest to the ground, the higher you go, the more disturbed this is. This goes for regular wind too. When I used to do some trackside videowork, it was a widely regarded norm that all the cameramen put the microphones as close to the ground as possible as this meant reduced wind.

This is the one aspect I question with the 2022 rules, raising the front wing was the wrong choice. It should have been kept as low to the ground as possible.

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Old 3 May 2022, 13:48 (Ref:4108773)   #3941
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No one is saying P2P should be in every series. However, F1 has just had a major change to the aero regs. So unless there are any further changes to aero on the horizon and there don't seem to be, what is the alternative to DRS?
Simple, just let drivers decide when and where to pass, instead of letting DRS decide for them. However if you really wanted to see more passing, why not bring back manual gearboxes?
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Old 3 May 2022, 14:58 (Ref:4108778)   #3942
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It feels to me like some folk should just go and watch Masters Historic F1 meetings. The cars, although amazing, are like agricultural machinery compared to today's.

We cannot go back. We cannot uninvent. Why keep looking to the past?
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Old 3 May 2022, 15:03 (Ref:4108779)   #3943
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We cannot go back. We cannot uninvent. Why keep looking to the past?
Because F1 rulemakers often make dumb, illogical decisions and don't learn from past mistakes.
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Old 3 May 2022, 16:06 (Ref:4108790)   #3944
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Because F1 rulemakers often make dumb, illogical decisions and don't learn from past mistakes.
How does that answer the question? It makes no sense.

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A: Because Mercury is the first planet!



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Old 3 May 2022, 16:08 (Ref:4108791)   #3945
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This is the one aspect I question with the 2022 rules, raising the front wing was the wrong choice. It should have been kept as low to the ground as possible.
What is "as low to the ground as possible"? Skid plats on the bottom of the wings? The wings don't look that high to me? I can envision they are as high as they are to prevent them from being torn off due to curbs and off track excursions?

(late edit. I think I have read that the front wing height is to provide less disturbance to the air flowing through the underbody. A lower wing would generate more dirty air for the car itself.)

Richard

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Old 3 May 2022, 16:36 (Ref:4108792)   #3946
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Simple, just let drivers decide when and where to pass, instead of letting DRS decide for them. However if you really wanted to see more passing, why not bring back manual gearboxes?

Drivers can decide when and where to make a pass, passing isn't restricted to the DRS zones. However, passing has become increasingly difficult, which is why F1 introduced DRS and despite the aero changes with the 2022 car, it is still an issue. Therefore, as passing still comes with a premium, I think it would be a good idea if F1 looked at alternatives to DRS and which aren't restricted to a particular part of the track. At least evaluate P2P in one of the sprint races.
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Old 3 May 2022, 18:02 (Ref:4108803)   #3947
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What is "as low to the ground as possible"? Skid plats on the bottom of the wings? The wings don't look that high to me? I can envision they are as high as they are to prevent them from being torn off due to curbs and off track excursions?

(late edit. I think I have read that the front wing height is to provide less disturbance to the air flowing through the underbody. A lower wing would generate more dirty air for the car itself.)

Richard
Yes that is a logical train of thought, they have prioritised overall car downforce generation over the effectiveness of the front wing. Having a lower front wing would likely hamper the floor aero but it would allow the cars to follow better.
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Old 3 May 2022, 18:03 (Ref:4108805)   #3948
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Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
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How does that answer the question? It makes no sense.

Q: Why do you like egg salad sandwiches
A: Because Mercury is the first planet!



Richard
What question is that?
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Old 3 May 2022, 18:15 (Ref:4108807)   #3949
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What question is that?
Sorry, I wish the forum directly supported multi-level quotes. Maybe it does and I am doing something wrong.

So Greem said this...
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We cannot go back. We cannot uninvent. Why keep looking to the past?
You replied (quoting the text above) with this...
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Because F1 rulemakers often make dumb, illogical decisions and don't learn from past mistakes.
Anyhow, back to my point. Your answer (at least to me) is totally disjointed from his question. I can make no logical connection between the two. Now, a a statement of fact, I can agree with your comment. I might make a slight tweak and say

Because F1 rulemakers often make dumb, illogical decisions and usually don't learn from past mistakes.

To Greem's comment (which I agree with), if I were to restate it and provide an example, it would be...

When fans try to 'fix' F1, they typically ask to revert back to older regulations that were in place during a magical era. Those regulations may have worked at that time and place, but given the increase in knowledge and technical capabilities we have now, we can't expect to get the same results when using those older regulations. As an example, use the 1988 regulations today and McLaren would not produce the MP4/4. It would be something that would look radically different.

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Old 3 May 2022, 18:37 (Ref:4108811)   #3950
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but it would allow the cars to follow better.
Help me understand what you mean here?

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