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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:16 (Ref:3775712)   #126
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This is it.

The stewards made this decision, but what do we want?

Some fans complain of people driving off track. Others (?) complain that we lose this overtake..
We could have massive kerbs, or walls, but we wouldn't have seen that move either and it would be more dangerous.

Tell the FIA what you actually want. Except that won't help, because we can't tell them for definitively.
What we want is consistancy. So many cars off track this weekend, yet the move of the day get's penalized. One could also argue it was safer for max to keep as far right as possible as to not to hit Kimi.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:17 (Ref:3775714)   #127
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The Verstappen decision to me smacks of a lack of consistantcy, either enforce the rule or don't not when the stewards happen to feel like it.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:17 (Ref:3775715)   #128
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To be clear that wasn't the point I was making.

Although it isn't irrelevant.
Please can you clarify your argument and explain the relevance of "rules are rules" then?!
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:20 (Ref:3775717)   #129
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Ah, consistency.

I don't remember someone else gaining a place in that way and getting away from it.

This is the a serious point, many of these things aren't actually the same so the consistency point is always difficult to apply.

Although Damon Hill has just said he wants consistency.

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Please can you clarify your argument and explain the relevance of "rules are rules" then?!
I was merely pointing out that in UK you'd be pinged for that to show that it's not something that is only F1.

Can you have clarify why you quoted "rules are rules" as if it was something I said.

I'm up for discussing this, but not if we're just trying to prove each other wrong.

Last edited by Adam43; 22 Oct 2017 at 21:25. Reason: Merge
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:24 (Ref:3775718)   #130
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I was merely pointing out that in UK you'd be pinged for that to show that it's not something that is only F1.
So it was irrelevant then?

Since they showed that Verstappen passed a Sauber on lap 1 having abused track limits, and you can claim that Bottas repassed Verstappen off the track (he had little option, but it's the same as Max, and both voluntarily overtook), that strikes me as inconsistent.

And again, if these rules were to be changed in Max's, would the "rules are rules" argument become utterly obsolete? Or would a large section of the motorsport fan base come out angry and disappointed at the FIA because someone overtook and put all four wheels off of the circuit?!

Edit:

I quoted "rules are rules" because that's the basic gist of the argument. You stating that you'd be penalised for something similar in UK club racing struck me as you making that very argument; that a driver 'abusing' track limits would generally result in a penalty. I'm claiming that your point is utterly irrelevant because we're not questioning the rule itself, but why the rule is in place. To me, it seems that many of us are asking "why is this rule in place?" and an answer we're getting is "because that rule is in place." What a terrible answer.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:27 (Ref:3775720)   #131
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I'm afraid I'm not following that. Sorry.

No not irrelevant. And why rules is rules again.

Sorry

And football is on...

Edit: I see you've added more in an edit like I did. Again I was just adding a piece of information, not a gist to my argument. I have only said it is hard to meaure consistent and hard to know what the fans actual want. So you think it was a terrible answer to a question I wasn't answering. Prove someone else wrong on the internet.

Football...

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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:34 (Ref:3775723)   #132
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What ever the rule is F1 gives itself another black eye.
Verstappens drive was the highlight of the race,the passing move was the cream on the cake.Must be a lot of casual F1 watchers going WTF at the penalty decision.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:38 (Ref:3775725)   #133
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I agree it was exciting. Driver of the race for sure.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3775727)   #134
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Is there a difference between running wide and keeping your foot down so as maintain position whether alongside or ahead of an opponent, and cutting the apex of a corner completely in order to get ahead of an opponent?

I'd say yes.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:42 (Ref:3775728)   #135
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Which is why I am quite catogicially not saying "rules are rules"!

Although, for reference, in U.K. Motorsport it is more likely to be applied as "rules is rules". I say this as it may be interesting not to prove anything.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:52 (Ref:3775731)   #136
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Is there a difference between running wide and keeping your foot down so as maintain position whether alongside or ahead of an opponent, and cutting the apex of a corner completely in order to get ahead of an opponent?

I'd say yes.
So would I. It was clearly gaining an advantage by abusing track limits. I race karts. If I passed someone with all four wheels off, I'd get dinged. If someone else did it to me, so would they, or I'd be marching off to the steward to ask why.

People are asking "yes, but why should we have that rule", well... What? What would be the point in even having a track if we didn't? You'd either have to say "race within these walls" which, fair enough, would work but would be rather expensive on a regular basis (and less safe) or races would just become a straight line (and we already have drag racing - it's sh*t).

I don't see any other way you could conceivably set up a race other than have "stay on the track" be the basic rule. Running wide on an exit is not the same, and is judged differently (for safety, based on when the race it is, etc.) As far as I know, nobody else cut an apex and made a place up. If they had, I'd expect a penalty.

Incidentally, I would be dinged 4 places for such a move, not just 1. Otherwise, there's no incentive not to just give it a go on the last lap or two and hope the stewards miss it.

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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:53 (Ref:3775735)   #137
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If you put your foot in touch, it is no try and a line out. It doesn't matter how entertaining you were, or how many other people did it before and got away with it.
Rules are rules.
He still gets my man of the match award though.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:54 (Ref:3775736)   #138
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Andrew, where do you race karts?
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 21:58 (Ref:3775738)   #139
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If you put your foot in touch, it is no try and a line out.
Sadly technology has ruined a lot of sports,especially rugby.....I'm from the era when if the ref didn't see it play on....
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:02 (Ref:3775740)   #140
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Sadly technology has ruined a lot of sports,especially rugby.....I'm from the era when if the ref didn't see it play on....
I was thinking about the rugby ref approach and the GP. A ref approach can be important to a game. Unless blatant or impactful a small transgression will be ignored for the sake of the game. There is also often a little bit of interpretation. Also there is the advantage rule. An important and blatant foul is always called.

Maybe my lack of getting in a tizzy about this is because I also follow rugby?

Although I also follow NFL and that has a lot of "rules are rules". I bring this up, because that is what the argument is about. (Biscuits )
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:08 (Ref:3775743)   #141
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Andrew, where do you race karts?
Mainly Club100 these days, although I'm finding myself tempted by X30 for 2019... (Literally where = UK, various places in England and Wales...)
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:12 (Ref:3775745)   #142
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Sadly technology has ruined a lot of sports,especially rugby.....I'm from the era when if the ref didn't see it play on....
The Hand of Back.....Legend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQlJ8K7XjQc
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:21 (Ref:3775747)   #143
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Mainly Club100 these days, although I'm finding myself tempted by X30 for 2019... (Literally where = UK, various places in England and Wales...)
Cool.

So MSA in karting is as hot onthis kind of thing as in cars. I asked as I was interested which country/governing body, but it's been an excuse for me now to look up X30.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:23 (Ref:3775748)   #144
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I was thinking of Club100 for that kind of penalty - not sure what the MSA stance would be, but I can't imagine "all four wheels off" would be looked on kindly. That said, most places we race, all four wheels off = one way trip to the tires anyway, at least at apexes!
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:24 (Ref:3775749)   #145
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
A few great moves out there today.It looked like a cruise for Hamilton.Vettel's move on Bottas was good and Verstappen had a good day-overall.I do wonder if McLaren have mis-timed the engine switch as their cars were a lot less of an embarrassment than they used to be and I have to wonder if they are now the Toro Rosso development team for the rest of the season.
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:24 (Ref:3775750)   #146
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Max not impressed either....
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"It's not good for the crowd. I really hope next year nobody is coming, because like this the sport doesn't make sense."
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:26 (Ref:3775752)   #147
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the worse but is Austin Healey winning something.

As we are doing videos.
https://youtu.be/ywsB65YfLOQ
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:30 (Ref:3775753)   #148
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I was thinking of Club100 for that kind of penalty - not sure what the MSA stance would be, but I can't imagine "all four wheels off" would be looked on kindly. That said, most places we race, all four wheels off = one way trip to the tires anyway, at least at apexes!
F1 tried the tyres on the apex. Remember 1996 Monza? Poor Damon!
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Old 22 Oct 2017, 22:46 (Ref:3775756)   #149
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F1 tried the tyres on the apex. Remember 1996 Monza? Poor Damon!
If I remember correctly Damon discovered that the tyres were bolted down and was going to report it but decided not to and allow others to find out the hard way.
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Old 23 Oct 2017, 02:18 (Ref:3775781)   #150
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So, I haven't watched the race yet, but I read the results and about the controversy. I decided instead of getting wrapped up in the emotions of what was likely an excellent drive by Max and also ignoring the fact it was the last lap, etc. I just decided to watch just the pass and nothing else.

In what universe can fans of the sports accept allowing for a pass that has all four wheels off in such a way that the corner is cut? As painful as it is, it was clearly the right decision IMHO.

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Is there a difference between running wide and keeping your foot down so as maintain position whether alongside or ahead of an opponent, and cutting the apex of a corner completely in order to get ahead of an opponent?

I'd say yes.
Agree.

I am a "Rules is rules" kind of guy. I don't like seeing drivers run wide with all four off, but... it happens all the time and I can't say what happens in F1 drivers meetings, but I believe it is not uncommon for different series to have different "understandings" with the drivers as to what is ok and what is not. All of which is usually clarified before the race. That understanding can also be track specific. I believe COTA is actually somewhat notorious for this type of thing (IMSA and WEC race from a year or two ago in which each series ran races on same day or weekend and had given drivers different allowances as to track limits. It was glaring obvious to fans like myself who watched both races that weekend in person) I believe there is precedent set for this in F1 at other tracks in which running wide in some corners is explicitly forbidden and warnings given to drivers.

But to your point... nowhere have I seen allowances made to allow cutting corners. Especially while executing an overtake. Is it messy and a bit inconsistent with the written rules? Yes, but I do believe in general it is relatively enforced consistently. Which is that within reason no penalties for running wide, and also more leeway if not actively overtaking or defending. What I think will always get a penalty is something like this which a corner is cut to overtake or defend. And rightly so!

Now I just need to go back and watch the entire race and enjoys Max's drive through the field. Up until the point he forgets what a race track is. That's video game type of driving!

Richard
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