Historic levels of damage

[Christian Devereux]

I've just got an email from U2TC's Ms Spagg, reiterating that it should be a non-contact series.
I remember seeing quite a bit of damage, so maybe it is a timely reminder.

I was talking to drivers at Dijon, many of whom remember a few years ago, when, they say, there was hardly ever any contact.

Has it got worse in the last couple of years, or are the rose-tinted specs making an appearance?

[john ruston]

Fleet Cortina racing!
What else do you expect if it turns into a Dagenham Dustbin series!

Notwithstanding all that good to see Howard back with a vengeance and leading and my hero won.

[zefarelly]

I've just replied to Carol

We've been virtually priced out of what was a good series and its turned into a lowest common denominator series, a sh1t load of cheshunt fakes

as John says, Dagenham dustbin series

even when I can afford it I'm not convinced its a worthwhile entry

[DaveGT6]

No vested interest to declare and little knowledge of the series but my understanding was that this was a premier European race series with very high standards. Are you saying that it has become a one make replica argy bargy event? If so very disapointing.

[Mike Bell]

I don't know how the U2TC race at Monza went, but afaik the multi-car accident at Dijon was in middle of pack on 1st lap when a mini spun on own oil. Don't think that driving standards were part of the equation- with big field of cars of fairly equal performance they are bound to be close to each other so early in race?

Seems success of a series does sometimes encourage a more 'competitive' element- Dijon entry was 17 LCs, 10 GTAs, 7 BMWs, 6 Minis, one Giulia and an MG1100.......

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Seems success of a series does sometimes encourage a more 'competitive' element- Dijon entry was 17 LCs, 10 GTAs, 7 BMWs, 6 Minis, one Giulia and an MG1100.......

Interesting. The exception that makes your point Mike?

[john ruston]

Watching the race from the left hander behind pits could be forgiven if you thought it sponsored by painting shop.

[rogerwills]

Well I was in the race, not watching. And I thought the driving standards were extremely high. I had a very close battle with a couple of Alfas and several Cortinas throughout the race. We were door handle to door handle on every corner and the running order changed constantly, sometimes 2-3 times a lap. Not once did I ever feel there was a chance of contact and indeed, no paint was traded, not a single incident.

I feel U2TC provides some of the closest and best historic racing out there. Of course it will be close as all the cars are relatively closely matched performance wise.

It is good that Carol is reinforcing her 3 C rules - no cheating, no complaining and no contact. But I don't necessarily think there was a lot of contact anyhow, far from it.

Roger

[zefarelly]

I haven't raced in U2TC for over a year, personal experience was of good driving standards, in the middle of the field albeit! It does appear to have become the latest place to display heroics. Why is it always saloon cars that get it? . . .

every time a decent series establishes itself it all goes t!ts, same happened in HRSR a few years back, and before that Top Hat turned into Nascar inspired shuntathon.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

Of course it will be close as all the cars are relatively closely matched performance wise.

Just my point earlier, and when cars are that close it only takes one to get out of shape, miss a gear or slip on some oil and contact could occur.

Deliberate contact or barging is another thing, and certainly should not be tolerated in historics or any other form of circuit racing.......

[JimW]

And that requires two things:

• Clerks (and Stewards if running to FIA rules) who will take an appropriately tough line on careless or reckless driving by whoever it is (provided the clerks are given the necessary information on which to act).
• Drivers who will support those officials, even if sometimes they feel unhappy with the outcome.

You could add to that a strong body looking after the series/championship which will, without undermining the event officials, determine, instill and enforce a culture in their drivers which will not tolerate sub-standard performance.

(So which of those three is missing in BTCC? )

Regards

Jim

[zefarelly]

credit where its due, this thread was started because Carol is doing something about it.

[john ruston]

Think it was Dijon more than Monza.

It was a very close race and reminded me of a good old production saloon race.

Great if you are watching but not so good if you are paying for the car!


It was a bloody good race.

[zefarelly]

where does one draw the line between spectacle and sensibility . . . even humble Dagenham dustbins are expensive panelwise, and they're scarce. some of the cars are nearly 50 years old and they're being b@st@rdised left right and centre, donor cars have all but dried up, panels likewise.

I can see why people with genuine original straight cars are happy midfield, maximising enjoyment with a trouble free drive in their pride and joy. most of us can't afford to try to win, or are scared by the prospect of getting in a paint fight.

[Henrik Pedersen]

I haven´t raced in Caroll U2TC series, but I did plan it, when I am done building a BMW 1800 TISA replica (in 2 years, or so), but I recall that we have had this kind of thread before, or similar at least.
And the conclusion is always, that is it never, ever going to be different before FIA steps in a act as they should do: set up a scutineering organization, that can take steps to limit cheating.

[zefarelly]

thats the other side Henrik . . . .

drivng standards are much easier to police, you just need big fluffly plumbs to stand up to those who think they can buy a win . . .

[simon drabble]

if the editorials are correct it seems to be the larger events that have the driving standrd issues. Is this due to the cheque book being greater than the talent in some cases or it being a grid of drivers not regularly driving together?

The exception to this rule (with a few notable exceptions) seems to be Goodwood where an "irregular" grid of drivers seem to behave - perhaps that is because it is not simply a case of pay and play?

There is no doubt that the regular series where everyone knows each others' driving styles seem to have less incidents. For my budget this seems to make more sense and for that reason I am more inclined to frequent the "clubbie" races.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Henrik Pedersen

And the conclusion is always, that is it never, ever going to be different before FIA steps in a act as they should do: set up a scutineering organization, that can take steps to limit cheating.

Paid for by who exactly ?

[terence]

Monies raised from HTPs?

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Monies raised from HTPs?

No Terry, the ASN gets all of that, FIA gets none at all. Next bright idea ?

[Henrik Pedersen]

Yes, paid for by FIA, because they have funds that are provided by us, the drivers. And they owe us. We are the buildingblocks they are founded on.
As mentioned before, they charge money for FIA approvals from firms, that charge us for the equipment supplied.
No Terry, FIA owes us, big time.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

No Terry, the ASN gets all of that, FIA gets none at all. Next bright idea ?

Errrr, wait a minuit,I'm thinking!

Ultimately I dont think it should be required,we have Observers at most points around a given circuit. Any reports are collected after every race and ideally dealt with accordingly [Hopefully!] It is then down to the Race Officials to deal with bad driving if they see fit.One problem is that usually,there are so many races crammed into the event that the officials really have their hands full and sometimes simply do not have the time.
Alternatively,as the HTPs are an FIA requirement,perhaps the ASNs shouldn't be on the receiving end and those funds should go to the FIA?

[jminsh]

Thats fine for the UK Terry but do the same rules apply in jonny foreinger land as there never seems to be as much boll***ing done across the water ??

[terence]

I think you'll find the cause of that to be down to language difficulties Jason,they can't be bothered! Shouldn't be the case,I know,but there is a much more relaxed view toward drivers abroad,we are classed as 'Entertainers' [clowns,whatever]
The more serious 'offences' are taken seriously though and do get dealt with!.

[Henrik Pedersen]

Thats not quite right Terry.
I have been involved in the organizing part of Danish historic racing for many years, and from our point of view, british drivers have always been regarded with high esteem in Denmark for their driving skills.
Clowns, no.