Formula 1 cars in the rain. - Page 2

Greem · 10 Jul 2012, 09:56 (Ref:3104523)

Coming out of Becketts into Chapel in the wet, Schumacher had his car at all sorts of angles yet kept it on the track (except for once where he ran out onto the tarmac runoff). Hamilton looked aggressive and pinned to the track, the Red Bulls both danced a little dance as they came through and Kobayashi was all over the shop but didn't go off.

Senna looked OK until he dropped it.

By comparison, the HRTs looked like they were doing a run to the shops. The lack of pace and handling compared to the rest was massively obvious through that sequence.

johnh875 · 10 Jul 2012, 10:15 (Ref:3104530)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spudgun

I used to enjoy when it rained as you got to see the skill all these drivers have, but nowadays it seems to be a case of seeing how long it takes for the safety car to come out and/or red flag. Races then don't resume until they are pretty much ready for inters.

When there is a lot of standing water etc and visibility is impossible, for marshalls as well as drivers as mentioned above, I don't see where the skill is in driving faster into a wall of spray than the other guy, assuming that you won't aquaplane off the track and the guy before you didn't either & isn't sitting in the middle of the track. I'm talking about the straights here not the corners. When cars start falling off the track half way down the straight you've waited too long to throw the red IMO. Likewise when cars are going off in numbers, why wait until someone spears a crashed car? It's only motor racing after all.

Then again people drive at full/normal speed down the road when you can't see a thing in fog too...

**bella** · 10 Jul 2012, 13:54 (Ref:3104652)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnh875

When there is a lot of standing water etc and visibility is impossible, for marshalls as well as drivers as mentioned above, I don't see where the skill is in driving faster into a wall of spray than the other guy, assuming that you won't aquaplane off the track and the guy before you didn't either & isn't sitting in the middle of the track.

hmm, i think this is a good point too. when it's wet and drying, there's a huge amount of skill in finding the available grip and exploiting it quicker than other drivers. as it gets wetter perhaps the rewards go to the cautious rather than the skillful. or is being cautious a skill in its own right?

Steven Humphrey · 10 Jul 2012, 17:32 (Ref:3104721)

The thing is, no incident officer is going to send his team out to a stricken car when other cars are in serious danger of aquaplaning into the same spot, even behind the safety car, so red flags are the only option. Remember, drivers are relatively safe in their cars if hit at low-ish speeds, marshals are not.

Burnsie · 10 Jul 2012, 19:58 (Ref:3104796)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Humphrey

...the Historic F1 cars ('67-'85) were having even more trouble. I have never seen cars spin at such a slow speed, and that was with big fat treaded tyres on. One couldn't even drive off the grass, it just did donuts (it also soaked me as I pushed it back on track)!

Was that the ex-Stewart Tyrrell by any chance?

Steven Humphrey · 10 Jul 2012, 20:37 (Ref:3104822)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnsie

Was that the ex-Stewart Tyrrell by any chance?

Yes! Was quite a comedy moment - we pushed him to about 10ft from the edge of the track but as soon as I let go of the rear wing, it span through 180 degrees and faced us!! A quick 180 by driver & we pushed him back to the track. I got absolutely soaked in the process, by water flying up from the rear wheel, with mud splattered all over my face. Seemed to amuse the Club grandstand though.....

**Spudgun** · 10 Jul 2012, 22:07 (Ref:3104867)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnh875

When there is a lot of standing water etc and visibility is impossible, for marshalls as well as drivers as mentioned above, I don't see where the skill is in driving faster into a wall of spray than the other guy, assuming that you won't aquaplane off the track and the guy before you didn't either & isn't sitting in the middle of the track. I'm talking about the straights here not the corners. When cars start falling off the track half way down the straight you've waited too long to throw the red IMO. Likewise when cars are going off in numbers, why wait until someone spears a crashed car? It's only motor racing after all.

Then again people drive at full/normal speed down the road when you can't see a thing in fog too...

In conditions like Silverstone of course throwing out the red was the best thing to do and in any situations like you describe. Silverstone is still fresh in everyone's minds and it was the right call. Things were crazy.

My point was more general than that. I don't believe I have rose-tinted glasses on (but there is always the danger), but IIRC in the past (as in 10+ years ago) safety cars/red flags didn't seem to be as frequent and it had to be really bad before the safety car was thrown out.

I'm not saying it wasn't justified in the recent individual cases, but it just seems to me that the quest for ultimate performance in the dry has meant the wet performance of the cars has suffered. Whether that's down to the current rules, the margins car designers go to these days, or both I don't know. The planks certainly can't help and not being able to go for a full wet setup on the off-chance it's dry the following day can't help either.

Look at Korea 2010, by the time safety car came in most of the cars swapped back to inters after a couple of laps. If it's that marginal between wet/dry then something is wrong IMO.

luke g28 · 11 Jul 2012, 12:46 (Ref:3105087)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spudgun

Look at Korea 2010, by the time safety car came in most of the cars swapped back to inters after a couple of laps. If it's that marginal between wet/dry then something is wrong IMO.

Didnt they go straight to slicks in Canada?

neiltb · 11 Jul 2012, 13:33 (Ref:3105122)

Could they not black flag the cars out there to get them in the pits but keep the timer going, the wait until almost dry and penalise those that got it right was the issue.

Burnsie · 11 Jul 2012, 17:41 (Ref:3105241)

Quote:

Originally Posted by neiltb

Could they not black flag the cars out there to get them in the pits but keep the timer going, the wait until almost dry and penalise those that got it right was the issue.

I've never heard of a "Black flag all" instruction outside of the United States, but even if it was an option it wouldn't have worked in this case. If I remember correctly, there was around six minutes of Q2 remaining when the session was stopped, so assuming all the drivers had entered the pits and been spoken to following the black flag, what would have happened at the start of Q3? The circuit was still undriveable, but unless the drivers had been excluded they would be allowed to take part in the session.

luke g28 · 11 Jul 2012, 22:14 (Ref:3105378)

Cant they just continue ticking the clock down? If Q3 never starts then big deal as long as a minimum of 4 minutes of track time occurred then times should stand.

Paradise City · 12 Jul 2012, 00:52 (Ref:3105392)

Doesn't seem that long ago that you might have a situation were Friday qualifying was dry and the Saturday was washed-out, virtually irrelevant as to the grid and yet the world didn't end.

cptkablamo · 12 Jul 2012, 01:10 (Ref:3105395)

It does strike me as odd that collectively they spend several billion each year to run in F1 and it rains a little and the thing grinds to a halt. Really, the only reason they should stop a session is if the marshals can't see what is happening. Teams should be able to change the setup, even add 'legality panels' or something to stop the spray should the weather change. The fact that it rains and the best drivers in the best cars on the best tracks can't drive should be an embarrassment.

JeremySmith · 12 Jul 2012, 01:35 (Ref:3105400)

I agree it's a load of nonsense, they should run in monsoon type conditions..

F1 is just rubbish really...

**Bononi** · 12 Jul 2012, 12:38 (Ref:3105572)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

F1 is just rubbish really...

Yeah !

Marbot · 12 Jul 2012, 13:12 (Ref:3105595)

Red Bull have gone ahead with plans to introduce a different chassis for wet races. A spokesperson said: 'Shiver me timbers!'

**bella** · 12 Jul 2012, 13:29 (Ref:3105603)

rumours the fia are to revise penalties to include walking the plank have been strenously denied.

S14 · 12 Jul 2012, 17:47 (Ref:3105683)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

rumours the fia are to revise penalties to include walking the plank have been strenously denied.

Similarly, requests to replace the post-race Moët with Grog have also been denied.

Burnsie · 12 Jul 2012, 21:48 (Ref:3105789)

Quote:

Originally Posted by luke g28

Cant they just continue ticking the clock down?

No, Qualifying Practice is a fixed-duration session (whereas the Free Practice sessions are fixed-end sessions) so the clock will stop in the event of a red flag. Of course this could be changed at the discretion of the Race Director and/or the Stewards, but it would take a case of force majeure for them to make this decision. I don't think that a relatively short period of heavy rain counts as a valid reason to abandon the session.

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