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Old 17 Jul 2017, 15:57 (Ref:3752162)   #61
boggissimo
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Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER View Post
I had a good look at a new Nissan Leaf yesterday with some other mechanics at a garage near me in the UK.
The owner was singing it's praises and I can see his point but only if you are only doing local "ish" runs. Although Nissan claim 150 miles on one charge that is in an ideal situation and not in cold weather when using the heater/wipers/air con/ lights etc when that can easily be reduced to 70 miles or less.
Yes that's fine if you are popping into town and back as you don't have to plug it in at the "non existent" charging posts in my area.
Seeing that you are looking at about 30 grand to buy one new they don't seem to be very good value for money to me.
I notice that Volvo say that they are going to go all electric in two years time so maybe they know more than others in the battery department ?
Your thoughts
I have a Nissan Leaf. (I also have a Subaru Impreza and a nearly-restored BMW Isetta, in case you are wondering). As a family car, for 95% or more of our journeys it is absolutely perfect - quiet, comfortable, reliable, cheap to run, easy to drive, spacious, well equipped, fast enough, etc etc. I have it on a PCP deal for around 200 a month (which covers depreciation from new), and will hand it back in a couple of years. I charge it at home overnight (economy 7) and it costs me around 10 a month to do the ~600 miles I do commuting and for local trips per month. In warm weather you can remotely start the air conditioning, and in cold weather you can remotely warm it up, so the car is comfortable when you get in.

My current Leaf has the 30 kWh battery, and I would be confident of getting 100 miles in any weather/temperature conditions. (For the older 24 kWh battery, I would consider 80 miles the realistic 'limit' in poor conditions). With my commute of around 35 miles round trip, I recharge every three days in the summer (every other day in winter). It's perfectly manageable and much the same as keeping an eye on your fuel gauge, except you don't have to leave home to fill it up. (I do understand that not everybody has a suitable place for home charging, so for some people the logistics can be too challenging). If you have the sort of job/commitments which means you might have to drive 200 miles at the drop of a hat, then a Leaf as your only vehicle is not a good idea. But most people aren't in that situation (either they have access to another vehicle or they don't do journeys like that). Only 6% of car trips in 2014 were over 25 miles, according to this: https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/wp-c...statistics.pdf

Volvo have committed to having 'electric motors' in all their new(ly released) cars in 2019, but in most it will just be as a hybrid, probably with a small battery which will only go about 20 miles before the petrol/diesel kicks in. A bold step but not as bold as their press fanfare might have suggested.

Nobody pays 30K for a Leaf unless they are very silly; after dealer incentives, government grant etc etc the list price is more like 20-22K.

While this thread has gone off into the wider issues very quickly, if you want to ask anything about actually living with a Leaf, I'm happy to offer my experience.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 16:05 (Ref:3752164)   #62
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http://insideevs.com/incentives-remo...alt-hong-kong/

This one must be the Daily Mail because it says EV sales have dropped to nothing in Hong Kong
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 16:24 (Ref:3752166)   #63
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Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER View Post
I had a good look at a new Nissan Leaf yesterday with some other mechanics at a garage near me in the UK.
The owner was singing it's praises and I can see his point but only if you are only doing local "ish" runs. Although Nissan claim 150 miles on one charge that is in an ideal situation and not in cold weather when using the heater/wipers/air con/ lights etc when that can easily be reduced to 70 miles or less.
Yes that's fine if you are popping into town and back as you don't have to plug it in at the "non existent" charging posts in my area.
Seeing that you are looking at about 30 grand to buy one new they don't seem to be very good value for money to me.
I notice that Volvo say that they are going to go all electric in two years time so maybe they know more than others in the battery department ?
Your thoughts
I've got a Leaf, it's great. Does what I need for 95% of my journeys, and it's cheap to run, quiet, comfortable, well equipped, fast enough, etc etc.

I pay 200 a month for the PCP deal (10K miles pa) and about 10 a month for the electricity to go ~600 miles.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3752182)   #64
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Originally Posted by Tel 911S View Post
http://insideevs.com/incentives-remo...alt-hong-kong/

This one must be the Daily Mail because it says EV sales have dropped to nothing in Hong Kong
Sweet. So you're now ignoring your own stats? Because before you posted saying they've dropped to nothing and it was actually 4500. Are we just pretending that doesn't exist? What about the global rise year on year? Does that not count either?

If we're just going to ignore facts then I'm going to start making some wild claims. I think that electric cars out number petrol cars 10 to 1! I'm not going to post proof, it's just what I think is happening. Sounds ridiculous when someone else says it, doesn't it.

Sales are on the up. If you remove incentives then after that initial drop, they still trend upwards. Your own sources confirm that. Sorry to urinate on petrol powered bonfire (don't do that: hazardous to your health!).
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 17:34 (Ref:3752186)   #65
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I'm curious to know which countries, please, Tel.
Denmark for one as I understand it.

Odd that it should be the King of Wind country that stops the subsidies and sees sales fall.

Whereas Denmark's neighbour Norway (the butt of many a Scandinavian joke telling session, hydro-electric powered and with huge Oil and Gas revenues for a relatively small population) subsidises electric cars to the point where almost everyone (it sometimes seems) buys a Tesla.

There's not much point in getting too concerned about the world moving to electric cars.

Governments want electric whether it suits their country or not. It will happen. It will take between 10 and 20 years. (There probably cannot be enough manufacturing capacity to make it happen faster).

Whether it is the right thing to do won't matter. It will happen.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 17:40 (Ref:3752190)   #66
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On the more specific topic of the Leaf, they have sold 250,000 of them in 5 years. Seems pretty decent.

2011 EPA range (actual test, not the Nissan quote) was 73 miles
2016 model moved from a 24 kWh battery to 30 and extended the range to 107 miles (again, tested, not the Nissan quote).

It's tested by the EPA at doing a nice sounding 99 mpg (106 highway, 92 city). The range might not be the greatest (but it's on the up), but that equivelent fuel milage is fantastic. The Tesla Model S 90D, which is of course far more expensive, was tested at 104 mpg. There's quite a few different Tesla configurations, so that changes depending on the model, but the 90D has dual motors, so that can lower it a bit. If you skip the dual motors and go RWD, you can increase that mpg.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 17:44 (Ref:3752193)   #67
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Originally Posted by grantp View Post
Denmark for one as I understand it.
That was already addressed previous page (but I understand if you don't want to read all my nonsense )

Denmark seen a dramatic drop in sales when the incentives ended. But, after that drop, they still rose despite no incentives. 2016 Q1 -> 2016 Q4 seen a 450% rise in sales, despite the car now being significantly more expensive. Whilst the sales figures are no where near what they were, they are still trending upwards.

In other words, people will buy electric cars with or without subsidies and it's growing despite the sudden jump in cost. As they get cheaper, it'll rise faster.

It's simple economics too. Most people aren't petrol heads and don't care what powers their car. If you tell them that one car is significantly cheaper to run than the other, they'll buy the cheaper one.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 18:34 (Ref:3752203)   #68
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That was already addressed previous page (but I understand if you don't want to read all my nonsense )

Denmark seen a dramatic drop in sales when the incentives ended. But, after that drop, they still rose despite no incentives. 2016 Q1 -> 2016 Q4 seen a 450% rise in sales, despite the car now being significantly more expensive. Whilst the sales figures are no where near what they were, they are still trending upwards.

In other words, people will buy electric cars with or without subsidies and it's growing despite the sudden jump in cost. As they get cheaper, it'll rise faster.

It's simple economics too. Most people aren't petrol heads and don't care what powers their car. If you tell them that one car is significantly cheaper to run than the other, they'll buy the cheaper one.
I posted before I got the the end of the thread on the basis of - well, why not.

Interesting to think that a Tesla is a cheaper option.

You should swap your Fiesta. There were, a few days ago, 199 used Teslas offered on the Tesla web site. Must be one there that could stack up on the number front.

It will be interesting to see what the governments do about lost revenues from tax and duties. The changes made in the recent budget looked like no more than a "Get set" for a raft of adjustments to come.

One things that puzzles me about Teslas is that when I have seen any on the motorway they are never travelling at speed. Usually if cruising they are sitting in the middle lane nose to tail with everyone else.

Maybe I only see cars being delivered or moved around for service or demos?

Or is it that, being tracked as they are, any rapid progress will be recorded and might be used in evidence against the driver?

Or perhaps it's a range thing?

Whatever, the puzzle is that they presumably appeal to some avid pertrolheads on a few counts, one being, presumably, the potential performance to play with. Must understand the need of Alpha people to have biggest/fasted/latest/most desirable things at their disposal and markets accordingly.

Far more logical would to tune for economy over speed - especially in the USA. That is if one was really serious about the ecological message.

I guess it's a bit difficult to do that and set up as a rocket launcher.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 18:39 (Ref:3752204)   #69
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You should swap your Fiesta. There were, a few days ago, 199 used Teslas offered on the Tesla web site. Must be one there that could stack up on the number front.
I wish! I'm not sure it'll last long enough for me to swap it :P My next car will probably be VW diesel (told you I'm not a green warrior!) until I can be in a position for a second hand Model 3.

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One things that puzzles me about Teslas is that when I have seen any on the motorway they are never travelling at speed. Usually if cruising they are sitting in the middle lane nose to tail with everyone else.

Maybe I only see cars being delivered or moved around for service or demos?

Or is it that, being tracked as they are, any rapid progress will be recorded and might be used in evidence against the driver?

Or perhaps it's a range thing?
I guess it's just that it gives you better milage, and they'll probably be sitting on Autopilot. I don't know the answer, but despite being a huge petrol head I have no desire to speed on public roads. I'd have a Tesla Model S (and park it beside my Bentley) and whilst I'm sure I'll have fun with the acceleration, a top speed test isn't really my thing. So you'd find me in my Tesla in the same lane I imagine.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 19:27 (Ref:3752211)   #70
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Originally Posted by grantp View Post
One things that puzzles me about Teslas is that when I have seen any on the motorway they are never travelling at speed. Usually if cruising they are sitting in the middle lane nose to tail with everyone else.

Or is it that, being tracked as they are, any rapid progress will be recorded and might be used in evidence against the driver.

Maybe Tesla drivers know they have nothing to prove so don't need to dominate the outside lane.....

All cars have a speed where they are fuel efficient, and to go any faster reduces that efficiency. I would think that EV drivers are more conscious of this than most diesel or petrol car drivers.

I think a Tesla owner can opt out of the 24/7 live tracking, although the purpose is to capture data to improve the breed, so why would you.

The U.K. road network is so congested nowadays, I don't find any enjoyment using it, so am happy to keep safe and legal-ish. Don't think I'm the only one that thinks that way.....
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:03 (Ref:3752217)   #71
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Maybe Tesla drivers know they have nothing to prove so don't need to dominate the outside lane.....

All cars have a speed where they are fuel efficient, and to go any faster reduces that efficiency. I would think that EV drivers are more conscious of this than most diesel or petrol car drivers.

I think a Tesla owner can opt out of the 24/7 live tracking, although the purpose is to capture data to improve the breed, so why would you.

The U.K. road network is so congested nowadays, I don't find any enjoyment using it, so am happy to keep safe and legal-ish. Don't think I'm the only one that thinks that way.....
Your observations may not apply on a worldwide basis Mike?

However I see little benefit, even if the car is driving, sitting in the middle lane at 65 with a van in front and a truck behind. There has to be other motivation to do that.

And yes the roads in the UK as terrible and getting worse. I discovered yesterday that the wealthy part of Oxfordshire has even worse road than Surrey. Beginning to think that out local roads may be some of the best in the country. Which is worrying as even locally I would consider a serious 4x4 (think Defender or similar) might be necessary soon to avoid regular suspension damage.

I suspect the state of the roads may be subconsciously intentional on the part of the "Government of state". On the basis of "If they are really bad people will slow down."

If so they should be honest and ban excessively powerful new cars in favour of super efficiency.

That said I doubt we will see super efficient small engines achieving high mileages before they need to be replaced. Or more likely see the vehicle they came in scrapped.
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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:26 (Ref:3752220)   #72
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I wish! I'm not sure it'll last long enough for me to swap it :P My next car will probably be VW diesel (told you I'm not a green warrior!) until I can be in a position for a second hand Model 3.



I guess it's just that it gives you better milage, and they'll probably be sitting on Autopilot. I don't know the answer, but despite being a huge petrol head I have no desire to speed on public roads. I'd have a Tesla Model S (and park it beside my Bentley) and whilst I'm sure I'll have fun with the acceleration, a top speed test isn't really my thing. So you'd find me in my Tesla in the same lane I imagine.

I've not seen it happen for a while but then I'm not a daily motorway user these days and thing have moved on but ...

If you have ever been alongside a large truck when a tyre blows out the idea of cruising along a motorway for an extended period on autopilot spending long periods beside a row of large trucks might be something you would do almost anything to avoid.

On the other hand if being a middle lane road block is one's thing a Tesla is probably the best option for ambience in the absence of being able to afford a chauffeur.

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Old 17 Jul 2017, 20:55 (Ref:3752234)   #73
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However I see little benefit, even if the car is driving, sitting in the middle lane at 65 with a van in front and a truck behind. There has to be other motivation to do that.
As an HGV driver, nothing is more annoying than having cars cruising at the same speed in between trucks (it's bloody dangerous for a start)- but it will be at 56mph max, not 65..... And white vans are usually in the outside lane, unless also fitted with a speed limiter!

A lot of people cruise at an indicated 70mph, but don't realise their speedo is by design, optimistic, and that they are actually doing 65. No idea how accurate a Model S speedo is, but would guess very, as likely GPS driven. I've never seen one on a dual carriageway going anything except 70mph +, so maybe you're seeing chauffeur driven or airport taxi cars....
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Old 18 Jul 2017, 09:15 (Ref:3752336)   #74
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All cars have a speed where they are fuel efficient, and to go any faster reduces that efficiency. I would think that EV drivers are more conscious of this than most diesel or petrol car drivers.
Only if they are short of range, which Teslas generally aren't! Tesla also has the 'supercharger' network around the major road network which has plenty of very fast charging points that Tesla drivers can generally use for free, so 'range anxiety' is not much of a factor. The only thing that makes an EV driver worry about efficiency is knowing how far they need to get on the battery range they have left. So if I'm going 20 miles and have 80 miles of range left, I'll go as fast as I like just like you would in any other car with enough fuel left.

It is true that there is some satisfaction to be gained from being very efficient, but just as with 'hyper-milers', you can take it so far as to have very dull journeys!
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Old 18 Jul 2017, 10:44 (Ref:3752349)   #75
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Agree. Regarding electric cars and the perceived stereotype owner- I got chatting to another i3 owner this morning. His other cars are Lotus Esprit Turbo and an Elan.

BTW boggi, you should enter the Leaf for the Pom next time instead of the Scooby. Maybe I'll bring the i3....
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