Originals v Replicas

[bwatt]

ISTR a race for replica Type 35 Bugattis some years ago, in which someone had the temerity to enter a genuine car. He was sent home...

[strider]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Controversly cars like the Costin Nathan I worked on years ago and were rivals to the Chevron I would imagine the wood monoquoce (spelling sorry) would have long since rotted away and have to be replaced.

Surely it was the later Astra version that was more of a direct rival to the Chevrons and Lolas?

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by John Turner

an issue that Doug Nye has raised in the latest (June) issue of Octane. He asks whether owners of racing cars are going to be prepared to race their valuable originals against the 'continuation' cars now being built by Lola, Chevron and others.

The trouble is that Historic Racing is almost an oxymoron and I have a love/hate with the whole issue, George Washington’s axe bothers me greatly.

Yes I imagine the majority will race. The majority will consist of the pot hunters, the drivers who are there to race and it just a coincidence its historic cars, and the show ponies who are there to bask in any reflected glory their car can give their peanut size brains.

The minority will be those that care deeply about the history that goes with their car. They are not 'snobs' or against make a better race of it, but they race to be part of a passion. They will stay away.

Lurking amongst all these will be the fakers, counterfeiters and tax dodgers, and as we have seen last year aided unwittingly by the organisers and with the threat of the High Court in immediate pursuit.

Its all a dirty, nasty, business. And the FIA have it completely wrong, I have no more interest in watching replicas than I have in going to an art gallery and seeing a repro of the Mona Lisa.
I need to feel the history which brings me back to George Washinton’s axe, and frankly I am even beginning to like that less and less.

[johnh875]

In pre-war racing out here there are sub-classes for new cars constructed from period components (not necessarily replicas of a particular car). The cars race together with original cars but it doesn't cause a problem (that I know of) as I think without exception the competitors are self-funded and would "notice" the repair cost from a shunt. I think it would be rare for a dnf not caused by mechanical failure. Another comment is that I would have to refer to the program to tell which cars were original and which were newer constructions.

In summary I don't have a problem with the cars racing together although they should be distinguished from the originals. I think the question of damage is not purely cost but also "replaceability", ie with the replicas you can always go out and buy another should it come to that.

Another thought is that our historic events also have Regularity events, usually 15min where cars can run without the commitment of a race. This normally draws quite a few additional cars from the woodwork that are not prepared (or able) to race.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by foxy mole

Surely it was the later Astra version that was more of a direct rival to the Chevrons and Lolas?

I distinctly remember even the Imp engined version giving the Chevrons a run for their money. While I was there we built a 2 litre BMW engined open top version and debuted it at Crystal Palace but unfortunately it threw an oil hose (not my fault I swear although we worked all through the night preparing the car and someone left it loose!) and lunched the engine don't know much about what happened after that as I left the company to work for myself but I think that combo would have been more than a match for the Chevrons.

The guilty party is in this photo from Crystal Palace on the day of the debut but I aint saying who:-) As you can see it was on Pole (or front row?) infront of the Chevrons!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

It was, I used to go down to a boat yard on Eel Pie Island on the Thames at Twickenham and collect them on a trailer.

Apparently a lot of the design drawings which were still at the boat yrad on Eel Pie Island were only recently distroyed! Apparently they had a bonfire of all 'unwanted stuff'.

[Al Weyman]

Really, that's mad, have they never heard of eBay! I am sure there are copies about somewhere.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Tainan

The thing is, racing cars weren't (and still aren't) made to last a long time, so any car that has been raced for decades is going to need a lot of parts replaced and that includes the chassis. However much you care for the car, if you're driving it, you're wearing parts out. Therefore I think the only possible way to define an 'original' car is one where the parts have been replaced bit by bit (as they've worn) rather than all in one go, although the result is of course the same, so is it worth doing? I would be surprised if many, in fact any, race cars from the various professional series finish their first season with all the original components still fitted. And many will have already had chassis repairs.

That's a reasonable idea - but it only really works if the car has been continually raced, what about when the car sits for many years and then is restored with a lot of components (e.g. suspension, bodywork and chassis) being replaced at that time.

Maybe a new category for 'rebuilt' (or 're-manufactured') cars could be established for those that have continuous history but very few original components? But how many owners would admit to that....

Originally Posted by Tainan

So, assuming the replicas really are made to the same spec, and that's a big assumption, the only difference between the replicas and the originals is their history, and it is nice to think you are driving or viewing the same car once driven by <insert your hero here>, even if almost every component has been replaced since he drove it!

The value of the car will usually reflect how much history it has, so this is sort of 'self-regulating'.

Cars like the Lancia D50 were very carefully produced with the right style of hoses being used etc. very few original cars are restored that carefully, I think there should be a cut off date before which aeroquip etc can't be used on a car for example.

Originally Posted by Tainan

The danger is that the replicas become so common that they dominate the grids, and you'll no longer have races for true historic cars. The top events will probably insist on originals, but that will only increase the temptation to place old chassis plates etc on the new cars, so no-one will know what's what, unless the replica parts are clearly and irreversibly marked.

So nothing changes really - there are so many cars around that organisers can often choose which cars they accept already, apart from history it is also possible that the owner/driver will influence their decision as well.

If the FIA had followed the pre-war example and recorded the originality of a car's components then it might be easier to know what was what.
Again with the pre-war cars some replacement components (e.g. Bugatti gearboxes) have been marked in a way that enables them to be easily recognised, since this issue was considered from the start - with many historic cars it is too late to reverse the changes that have been made.

It might be easier with pre-war cars since the components tend to last longer and weren't necessarily designed to be replaced frequently, but there must be a case for establishing which components are the major parts of a historic car (e.g. the chassis in steel framed cars, but with later aluminium tubbed cars the suspension was more valuable so teams tended to retain the suspension with the chassis number and replace the tub, so the suspension tends to reflect the entity), and categorising them on the basis of this.

When started in historic racing (20+ years ago) the problems being caused were obvious and no one would listen, it would have been a lot easier to do something then that it is now.

[Alan Raine]

In reality no Historic Car can be as it was when it first raced as parts have to be changed to keep it going. I fully understand how true Historic racers want to keep their cars as original as possible and why they get upset when virtual 'Kit Cars' are given equal status. The problem is nobody seems able to define what is considered real and what is a copy. What is the cut off point between the two. Many restored cars are stunning and I'm sure look better than they were first built - but how much is original? What is the difference between that and Lola building new T70's.

Also, what happens if your Historic Car has been developed over the years. For example I have shared ownership in a 27 year old Formula Ford for 24 years. It's never had a chassis plate and slowly it's been altered to suit our purposes. We have moved the radiators, added an extra roll hoop (having seen 2 break on other cars in inversions, with serious consequences) and are currently updating the brake master cylinders as the old ones are past there best. Other bits have been replaced over time and more efficient replacements used. Being a Formula Ford it can raced fairly easily even in the Historic FF championships but perhaps in 10 years the situation might change. Under current rules if this was say a Lola T70, would this be allowed?

[Al Weyman]

Many restored cars are stunning and I'm sure look better than they were first built -

I will go along with that statement. Years ago when I was working for Nathan's at Fortis Green Road, David Piper and Paul Hawkins who raced the GT40 Gulf LeMans cars were both stationed in the same building and in the corner covered in dust and birds crap was a much unloved and neglected engineless Lola T70 looking a real sorry state which at the time I was trying to buy from Paul as it was a shame to see this great car looking so sorry for itself. (I was going to make it into a road car but that's another story!). Anyhow that absolutely beautiful specimen that was at Brands Hatch at Easter would have shamed that car and at the time (67/8) it can't have been more than a couple of years old or so!

[strider]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I distinctly remember even the Imp engined version giving the Chevrons a run for their money. While I was there we built a 2 litre BMW engined open top version and debuted it at Crystal Palace but unfortunately it threw an oil hose (not my fault I swear although we worked all through the night preparing the car and someone left it loose!) and lunched the engine don't know much about what happened after that as I left the company to work for myself but I think that combo would have been more than a match for the Chevrons.

The guilty party is in this photo from Crystal Palace on the day of the debut but I aint saying who:-) As you can see it was on Pole (or front row?) infront of the Chevrons!

I know that particular car quite well. It's an Astra RNR1. It may have had a BMW engine that day, but later in the year it had a Cosworth FVA, maybe because the BMW lump had lunched itself!

I'm guessing you're not the blonde on the left, so that narrows it down a bit!

[Al Weyman]

No ehe was a Scottish lady as I recollect the secretary, the guy on the rights name was Nick (Cole? came from Sussex I think) and the little guy at the back was Davy (?) who went to work for Guy Edwards I believe, I would have been in the pitlane setting things up (doing the hard work in other words!)

[strider]

Didn't know they had pit stops at the time...

Guy Edwards had an Astra RNR2 with an FVC engine in '70, but it wasn't as quick as that '69 RNR1 with an FVA.

[JFW]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

In reality no Historic Car can be as it was when it first raced as parts have to be changed to keep it going. I fully understand how true Historic racers want to keep their cars as original as possible and why they get upset when virtual 'Kit Cars' are given equal status. The problem is nobody seems able to define what is considered real and what is a copy. What is the cut off point between the two. Many restored cars are stunning and I'm sure look better than they were first built - but how much is original? What is the difference between that and Lola building new T70's.

Also, what happens if your Historic Car has been developed over the years. For example I have shared ownership in a 27 year old Formula Ford for 24 years. It's never had a chassis plate and slowly it's been altered to suit our purposes. We have moved the radiators, added an extra roll hoop (having seen 2 break on other cars in inversions, with serious consequences) and are currently updating the brake master cylinders as the old ones are past there best. Other bits have been replaced over time and more efficient replacements used. Being a Formula Ford it can raced fairly easily even in the Historic FF championships but perhaps in 10 years the situation might change. Under current rules if this was say a Lola T70, would this be allowed?

Alan We would love to see your car out and racing in the Historic Formula Ford championship. Clearly modifications from period are permitted but we try to balance practicality over originality. If you become 'draconian' over the regulations, the competitors leave, if you are too soft they leave too. I have delayed a purge on one issue already due to softening grids. But I will not delay it indefinitely.

J

[rbm]

Yes difficult isn't it.
And what is an original anyway? so it has a blow up and a con rod comes out of the side, so thats a new block, crank, rods pistons and maybe a head. lossing it in a big way in to Becketts, a new chassis or shell and a couple of corners. Finding 2nd instead of 4th and cogs shower the track - so a new box is needed So this is the original caR raced by Joe McBloggs in the 1952 le manns but its a good strong car as everything has been replaced since 2000. But then a gain we wouldn't want one of those dispicable replicas built from spare original engine gearbox steering instruments etc back in the 90's as it would not be fair

now I ask the the question, is our Cooper 500 mk2 original? it was found in a scrap yard in kenya as a rolling chassis with steering, but missing all the bodywork engine gearbox and wheels, it now has an original 1948 Jap and 1948 burman gearbox ?
or what about our 1931 MG built up form a kit of 1931 bits?

Is the answer that you have to have a certain percentage of original parts, but that would ban many a car that has been raced hard for many a year simply because to much would have been changed.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by JFW

Alan We would love to see your car out and racing in the Historic Formula Ford championship.

Too new i'm afraid (1979) and time and money dictates a very slow rebuild!

I had a look at the pics from Cadwell on FF1600.co.uk. I'm very impressed with the preperation of those cars shown - very good

[zefarelly]

If you restricted race grids to truly genuine historics they'd be virtually empty, and I believe thats a fact. ( At least for saloons and many post war sports cars)

As has been posted already, things get replaced, repaired , changed etc so it would be virtually impossible to Police anyway.

All of this begs another question already mentioned recently . . . .why not ( for saloons) insist on an original road going spec, it would be hillarious to watch, far closer to original (homologated ride height is twice what most people run now for most 60's saloons) period racing, cheap and fun ! I'm sure it would level the field more as well.

I think we could forego the insistence on 20" steering wheels made of wire though

[Al Weyman]

Didn't know they had pit stops at the time...

It was nearly 40 years ago Foxy the old grey cells are not what they used to be, I can't even remember if there was a pitlane or not at the Palace but I can assure you I was there on the day that photo (which made the front page of Autosport) was taken. I may have even been standing behind that lot, parking the rig up, making the tea who knows I was only 18 or 19 at the time, told them I was a lot older no doubt and looked it :-).

[Alan Raine]

Al,

There was a Pit lane but it was very small. As can be seen in the background of this old photo I used in the Crystal Place thread.

[R59]

This reminds me of the story from a couple of years back at Road America, when, at a International Supersports race (CanAm), of the 13 McLaren M8's built, there were 25 on the grid.

On one of which, only the steering wheel was the original part. Some were original bodywork with new tubs, some were original suspension parts with new tubs and bodywork.. the list goes on!!

I wanted to build a replica (spaceframe, not monocoque) of a March 707/717, but wasn't asked not to (in no uncertain terms) by the owner....

Rob.

[Alan Raine]

A private collection of cars that nobody new about was discovered in a factory in France some years ago. 2 brothers who ran the company were known for not paying their workers very well and when the brothers died the secret collection was found, much to every ones surprise. (I think it's called Shlumf collection, or something like that).

All the cars were original. This got several racers & owners in Europe worried as the cars they were using were supposed to be original. The genuine ones were found in the collection!

[John Turner]

Alan, would you believe that it is nearly 30 years ago, and it was discovered and publicised long before the brothers died! I think they went into tax exile in Switzerland. You can read all about it in 'The Schlumpf Obsession' by Denis Jenkinson and Peter Verstappen, published originally in 1977! A phenomenal collection, including, as you say, many original racing cars. I believe that it has been turned into the French equivalent of a cross between our National Motor Museum and the Donington Collection.

[Alan Raine]

Yes it must be about 30 years - crikey i'm getting old (original though!)

[Peter Mallett]

And you have that patina of use too. Or are you just worn out?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

And you have that patina of use too. Or are you just worn out?

Probably the latter, although nothing that a good service and a bit of lubrication couldn't put right!