Originals v Replicas

[John Turner]

Very interesting interview of Max Mosley by Simon Taylor in the latest (Green!) edition of Motorsport. He prefers the term 'facsimile' to 'replica' but has a particularly contentious view of historic racing cars and historic racing. He thinks that original racing cars with a provenance should be kept in museums albeit in 'running' condition for the occasional demonstration. It follows therefore that he also thinks that the grids in historic racing should mainly be populated by the 'facsimiles'.

[Andrew Fellowes]

John I think Frank Gardner would agree with that!
He is very sceptical about metal fatigue and this subject tends to be one of his hobby horses. (he lives near here in sunny SE Queensland) I remember when the MSA in the UK brought in crack testing for historics in the early 70’s but soon dropped it due to the impracticality of testing, not to mention a near revolt by competitors. But don’t the Historic F1’s have to do something like this now?

As it seems to take several months for Motor Sport to reach here (Cutty Sark could do it quicker) I will have to be patient to see what Max has to say, but dare I say he has a point.

[John Turner]

Andrew, I'm sitting on the fence with this at the moment. Mind you, many of these historic racers (the cars, not the drivers ) have been rebuilt with new tubs/chassis etc, haven't they, and, of course, most will have had certain components like brakes, steering and suspension rebuilt several times over. Your flexibility here, is in distinct contrast to your 'purist' postion over liveries, it would seem!

It's interesting that Max also has a problem with new tyres manufactured to look like the originals using modern methods and rubber that give more grip, and engine rebuilds that utilise modern knowledge and materials on internal components that give more power. However, 'facsimile' cars would certainly benefit from those developments, so his concern must presumably be restricted to the additional stresses and strains being imposed on the componentry in the 'original' cars.

It would be great if you could persuade Frank Gardner to sign up and post!

[Al Weyman]

It would be great if you could persuade Frank Gardner to sign up and post!

I'll go with that!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Your flexibility here, is in distinct contrast to your 'purist' postion over liveries, it would seem!
It would be great if you could persuade Frank Gardner to sign up and post!

I can assure you I am not!
In one of my other posts I mentioned George Washingtons' axe and how much that concept worries me. At best some cars could be describes as a descendant of the of the original, but they are certainly not original in a true meaning.
For me nothing surpasses the thrill of seeing a completely untouched original, with tatty paint work dating back decades!
This is one reason why Max has a point!

Frank is/was in hospital, you may recall the hot oil incident I think with a Lotus 18 in the early '60's? Its troubled him all his life and recently flared up again but they have I understand, brought it back under control.
Good idea but don't hold your breath!

[Al Weyman]

Well you tell him Andrew he has at least one hero worshipper overhere and get well soon, I have the video he done with the big block 2nd gen Camaro (which is excellent if anyone is into yanks and early 70's Touring Car Racing), and it would be brilliant to share a thread with him, wish him well from a dyed in the wool Camaro nut. I am proud to say I was once friends with another great Aussie racer from the period, Paul Hawkins, when I worked at Nathan Racing in th 60's and I recon they must have all come from the same long broken mould those great Aussie characters/racers.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

I can assure you I am not!
In one of my other posts I mentioned George Washingtons' axe and how much that concept worries me. At best some cars could be described as a descendant of the of the original, but they are certainly not original in a true meaning.

I don't have too much of a problem with the GW's axe. Life continues to evolve; history continues to be made! If there is an unbroken link in the history of a racing car, and the changes are known and recorded, is it of any less historical significance than one which ran for a season and was then put in a museum? The provenance is still there! Afterall many of them had developments and changes made to keep them competitive on the track in period, and this could have gone on for years. Look what Enzo Ferrari did to the Lancia D50s. I doubt that there is a single car racing in historics today that could claim that it still has all its original components to original specification.

Originally Posted by Andrew Felllowes

For me nothing surpasses the thrill of seeing a completely untouched original, with tatty paint work dating back decades!
This is one reason why Max has a point!

Yes, possibly true, but how often does that happen, and how many are actually left like that? If Max's point is restricted to those cars (I guess we are talking about cars like the Moss Mille Miglia winning 300 SLR) then fair enough, because it is unlikely to deplete the ever swelling ranks of historic racing. Having said that, one of the greatest sights in historic racing today is Peter Hardman in the Aston Martin DBR1/300, exiting Fordwater heading into St Mary's. Now this car is one of only 5 built, and the most successful of the 5, having won amongst other races, the 1959 Le Mans. I would far rather see it being raced as Peter does, than pottering around in tatty paintwork on a demonstration run. Not only that, but he is bringing the sight and sound of that beautiful car to a whole new audience, and maybe making a few converts, in a way that a demonstration run never could. I accept that this may not continue forever, and I'd hate to see it with a roll cage, but I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well you tell him Andrew he has at least one hero worshipper overhere and get well soon ....

Thousands more than one, Al!

[Al Weyman]

For me nothing surpasses the thrill of seeing a completely untouched original, with tatty paint work dating back decades!

I remember a T70 I was trying to purchase back in the 60's looking very tatty with battle scars and birds crap and dust all over it and the absolutely pristine car I see at Brands at Easter and I know what looked the best, the restored one undoubtably. Have a look at the (currently) tatty old wreck of a Penske IROC race car in my garage and tell me I should leave it like that or renovate it, I know what I am going to do:-)

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I was once friends with another great Aussie racer from the period, Paul Hawkins, when I worked at Nathan Racing in th 60's and I reckon they must have all come from the same long broken mould those great Aussie characters/racers.

Al that's one regret I have, I never saw him race. I saw Frank many times, it was the interviews after the race that were hilarious, and if Yogi Muir was there too....... ah! great days.
He certainly hasn't changed, a friend of mine told one of the nurses to look after him well, "He's one of the world's greatest racing drivers you know" to which the nurse replied, " Oh yes, we know, he's told us".

Having said that, one of the greatest sights in historic racing today is Peter Hardman in the Aston Martin DBR1/300, exiting Fordwater heading into St Mary's.

That I haven't seen, but having been lucky enough to do 4 seasons of Lloyds & Scottish, I can imagine. I followed Mike Salmon around Silverstone GP once, the way that he drifted that Aston was just magic. I could only keep up because I had more power than he did!


I understand what you both are saying but it rests uneasily with me, I can't really make up my mind why. One thing I know for sure is the photos that John you have just posted of BT35-8 & 23C-1 are sensational.
Why then do we have to endure guys who plaster their cars with their own modern business ads? Its banned here in Oz, thank goodness, thus Brian's car is 100% as it was on that cold weekend at Mallory in early '72.

The worst one I can remember was the late Jim Wallis who turned BT30-6 in a moving bill board for the Otford Group and yet the Yardly Mclaren he had was perfect. If owners of Historic F1's can do it why on earth can't the rest? I bet if they built a replica they would make sure it was facsimile of an original.

M-B are quite right to retire their MM winner. Others will follow I am sure. Sad, but inevitable.
To organisers who allow these new relicas in, please call it a "replica" and not a "1961 type" as we have seen up to now, because that makes me really angry.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

I understand what you both are saying but it rests uneasily with me, I can't really make up my mind why.

Well, I can't quite either, but on balance, I'm inclined to think that we should continue to see the originals race for as long as the owners are prepared to do so. This is partly because I think, as I have alluded to in my previous posts, that so few are genuinely original anyway(back to that axe!). In reality, of course, there are already plenty of cars that are kept in museums, only a few of which are allowed out for demonstration purposes.

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

One thing I know for sure is the photos that John you have just posted of BT35-8 & 23C-1 are sensational. Why then do we have to endure guys who plaster their cars with their own modern business ads? Its banned here in Oz, thank goodness, thus Brian's car is 100% as it was on that cold weekend at Mallory in early '72.

Yes, the pictures that Bryan sent me for posting are great, but modern advertising decals can easily be removed can't they? I must say that I have not seen any yet that are 'plastered' with adverts, and most of the pictures that I have posted in the chassis archive don't show any adverts, if I recall correctly.

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

M-B are quite right to retire their '56 MM winner.

I'm going to beat David McKinney to point out that it was 1955!

[Al Weyman]

Unfortunately advertising can be a neccessary evil, I have my old chevy shamelessly covered in promotion for my little outfit so I can justify its existance, not the same thing as a T70 of course but same principle.

I never watched Paul race as I was busy most weekends when I was up at the garage, I did hear one story after a good night out he got halfway around the warm up lap in the GT40 and in his own words, 'Had to stop and open the door to shoot a tiger' don't think you would see that today.:-) He used to tell us his ambition was to do the whole 24hr Le Mans single handed.

[Andrew Fellowes]

I'll see if I can find one of the Otford car, it was extreme.

Damn! you saw my post before I removed 1956, I was lost my nerve when I realised that I got it wrong! I did 3 MM Retros including the first, so I should know better.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Here is a case in point.

The chassis of BT36-2 was found on a garage wall in Manila in the Philippines in 1988. The FT200 was missing as was the bodywork. Gearbox was easy, that was half buried in the mud outside. Bodywork turned up under the house of the previous owners' mechanic! Here it is, just as found, as it did its last race 30 years ago, the original 1971 gelcoat is just visible under layers of paint.
Well thats how it will stay, this is history.

Sorry its a bit blue, my old digital is clapped out.

Al to gain tax relief wouldn't there be other avenues? I don't know your UK rules.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Of couse I won't use that body work, but imagine if I had a new chassis as well because to old was too rusted out?

If all the original bits sit in my garage, and I dive a new chassis with new bodywork, new wheels, new Geoff Richardson FVA, -(chassis plate's original), may I ask what am I driving? Is it the original, a recreation or a replica?

I HATE the emotional confusions of GW's axe!

p.s. Here in Oz a new chassis is fine but the old has to be destroyed, cut up into zillions of little bits, so you can understand most here, repair what they have!

[John Turner]

I agree with you Andrew, about the Manila car, and I know that some cars have been 'rebuilt' with even less, but this sort of thing has always happened. I suppose the thread initially was trying to address the issue of racing cars with a continuous historic provenance (albeit modified and developed over they years) against those 'continuation' cars which now seem to be in production. Its difficult to know here to draw the line. I certainly couldn't deny the pleasure of seeing Jochen Mass pedalling the 'new' Lancia D50 at Goodwood amongst cars that were built in period, but when it comes to 'new' T70s racing old ones, that's a different matter, I guess. I just like to see these old cars out, and although, I think Frank Gardner has a very valid point about racing old cars that have their original fatigued structures, the quality of preparation in historics is, on the whole, as good, if not better than originally. Stirling Moss has commented more than once on how much better historic Maseratis are prepared now than they were in period!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

in his own words, 'Had to stop and open the door to shoot a tiger' don't think you would see that today.

A big evening the night before, 'Barking at the Grass', can you imagine racing with a hangover?


John do I hear now that the consensus from organisers is that for the most part the new 'run on' cars will not be accepted?
I imagine that they are free to choose who they want, or can organisers be challanged for rejecting an entry?

[John Turner]

Andrew, my understanding is that organisers are free to choose which entries they accept so you could say that there will be an element of policing, in that sense, I guess. However, I'm assuming that if 'continuation' cars are to be built, the manufactures must presumably expect that their clients will have opportunities to race them, somehow, somewhere.

[simon drabble]

At the end of the day it is up to the race organiser to choose - Ron Masters of WSM is the only one who has said he will welcome continuation cars according to the latest HMRN.

[zefarelly]

From what I read a majority have said they won't, BUT, they're on the whole the top end of the historic racing market, and In reality could quite possibly become a minority as more and more cars appear from assorted woodwork and workshops.

I agree its up to the organisers, its their series to pick and choose, if they have empty grids all of a sudden they'll have to adapt or die.

[simon drabble]

I think the obvious answer is as suggested somewhere else and run an invitation class - that way everyone is happy

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think the obvious answer is as suggested somewhere else and run an invitation class - that way everyone is happy

I thought that . . .but then you have the added complication of true replicas with period components, and modern replicas with modern materials . . .further complicated by original originals and originals with 'optimised' engineering additions from modern components and materials

its a very messy birds nest at best

for example Simon, both our cars are replicas . . . but built from 80% original components, yours has been optimised for racing from the day it was rebuilt and mines was prepared as standard and is being tweaked as I go. theyre both to the correct spec and within the rules etc, and we're allowed to race with the best of the rest, the difference between saloons and sports cars/racers is ultimately the value, and that is where 90% of the 'problem' lays IMO, the exclusivity of the club is being jeapordised.

[simon drabble]

this system doesnt work for tin tops as one must assume they are all roadcars which have been converted for racing so everyone is probably in teh same boat. However in teh case of Sportsracers and single seaters the argument holds true. I wouldnt mind racing against say a Crossle which was made last week if I know it was in an invitation class but if it was in the same class as my Merlyn I would be a tad narked!

[Peter Mallett]

Well all you need to do is get a new engine, new chassis, new suspension and new gearbox and ...................... oh wait!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well all you need to do is get a new engine, new chassis, new suspension and new gearbox and ...................... oh wait!

and i will have a 23b!!!!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well all you need to do is get a new engine, new chassis, new suspension and new gearbox and ...................... oh wait!

and would you like an axe with that Sir?

I like what I am hearing from the learned members of this forum but;

My concern was that if a car is eligible under FIA /MSA rules, that the organisers would have to show ‘just cause’ why they turned it down. This stems from my experience with an event here in Oz where it’s oversubscribed each year. The vicious nature of some complainants is beyond belief and given the chance I am sure that some individuals would consider litigation. Hobby it may be, but big money can often get what it wants by force.

Not being legally minded I don’t know how “We don’t want you” stands up in court against “The FIA/MSA says I am eligible”.

The event regs might have to be worded skilfully.