Radiator Deisgn For Formula Student Project

richardnewcombe · 9 Jan 2007, 15:32 (Ref:1810460)

Hey guys, new member I know, hello everyone! Sorry if this is the wrong forum already but here goes.......
Basically the reason I joined is that I am a 4th year University student and we are currentley working on a Formula Student Project, the details about it can be found at http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastudent/ .
My problem, I have a shed load of work on at the moment (final year projects, exams etc) and cant devote the car all the time I need. However I have been assigned the task of designing the radiator and cooling system for the car.
Basically it is powered by a 80bhp (60KW) motorbike engine, and will run around the track with an average speed we reckon on 40mph. We have been through cooling pump selection, and chosen to run it off the battery to save the small ammount of power we have for the poor wheels! The next problem though is radiator selection and budget, we have about 4 grand for the whole car (but have most parts already so dont worry too much about that). So really I need to find the most effective, cheap, lowest drag inducing radiator for this car that wont cause it to overheat and explode as I have been told some have done in the past! Any help woulde be incredibly gratefully recieved, even if its just telling me to go to hell asking you lot this!
Thanks again
Richard Newcombe
University of Nottingham Formula Student Team

Notso Swift · 9 Jan 2007, 22:37 (Ref:1810803)

Don't be so lazy!
In the last 6 months there have been at least 2 threads that will give you ideas try:
Multiple fans
Overheating Bike Engined Car, this one is particularly good with some sprited debate from some guys who know their stuff.
For what you want to do you need the smallest, lightest possible with the minimal effect on other considerations, such as aero. You need to work out how much heat you need to reject and work from there.

av8rirl · 9 Jan 2007, 23:54 (Ref:1810852)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

Overheating Bike Engined Car, this one is particularly good with some sprited debate from some guys who know their stuff.

They don't "know their stuff".... the REALLY "know their stuff"!!!! Even if some opinions differ!!

ubrben · 10 Jan 2007, 07:47 (Ref:1811014)

Hi to the guys at Nottingham. I was one of your design judges at Formula Student last year!

About a third of the energy in an IC engine gets out as power another third is noise the final third is heat. So you've got to dissipate 60kW in a 40mph air stream.

Time for the heat transfer text book!

Quote:

My problem, I have a shed load of work on at the moment (final year projects, exams etc) and cant devote the car all the time I need.

Don't really understand this. In my experience the people I did FS with who had this attitude have got ordinary engineering jobs. The people (myself included) who found the time have very satisfying jobs in motorsport.

Ben

phoenix · 10 Jan 2007, 09:04 (Ref:1811064)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubrben

Don't really understand this. In my experience the people I did FS with who had this attitude have got ordinary engineering jobs. The people (myself included) who found the time have very satisfying jobs in motorsport.
Ben

Nicely put, Ben!

I remember some junior colleagues once telling me I was 'lucky' to have the senior post I did at the time. I said 'Yes, but it's funny; the harder I work the more luck I seem to get!"

StephenRae · 10 Jan 2007, 10:14 (Ref:1811141)

Hang a plastic/alluminium Vauxhall Corsa radiator (£32.50)in the airflow...job done, no fan...if it's not adequate fit two!

ubrben · 10 Jan 2007, 11:11 (Ref:1811214)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Hang a plastic/alluminium Vauxhall Corsa radiator (£32.50)in the airflow...job done, no fan...if it's not adequate fit two!

Not quite the level of engineering required to do well in FS.

"We randomly tried this and it worked ok" doesn't really cut it :-)

Ben

StephenRae · 10 Jan 2007, 12:30 (Ref:1811311)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubrben

Not quite the level of engineering required to do well in FS.

"We randomly tried this and it worked ok" doesn't really cut it :-)

Ben

It does if you can explain why it works.

ubrben · 10 Jan 2007, 12:46 (Ref:1811331)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenRae

It does if you can explain why it works.

Well yes, randomly trying stuff and then coming up with a good story for the judges is also a big part of FS. Having been on both sides I know how much of it is BS.

Ben

1200Datto27 · 10 Jan 2007, 12:54 (Ref:1811343)

Find a road car engine that has 100hp (to allow some headroom) and find out what volume radiator it uses, as the manufactures will have ensured that the radiator is big enough, and then get yours sized to suit the car.

JamesH · 10 Jan 2007, 17:12 (Ref:1811579)

http://www.radiatorsonline.co.uk/

These guys are pretty cheap for rads, and most listed on the site have dimensions which is useful. Try a VW Polo radiators - ali and plastic, light weight and good heat transfer. Comes in varying sizes. Used a lot by Locost people with 1300 Xflow of about 84hp.

James

JamesH · 10 Jan 2007, 17:16 (Ref:1811581)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubrben

Don't really understand this. In my experience the people I did FS with who had this attitude have got ordinary engineering jobs. The people (myself included) who found the time have very satisfying jobs in motorsport.
Ben

Of course, you don't get a job at all if you fail your finals.........got to do some course work/revision at some stage.

Imagine the interview scenario (not that you would get one)..

"Well, I know I failed my engineering degree, but I am really proficient at finding the right radiator for a FS car. If that's what you are looking for..."

Still, I take your point - sacrifice a few beer hours!!!

James

ubrben · 11 Jan 2007, 07:50 (Ref:1812060)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesH

Still, I take your point - sacrifice a few beer hours!!!

James

Exactly.

In the end it's priorities. If you want to go straight into F1 you need a 1st class undergrad degree and/or a masters/Phd. Any decent engineering company will be looking for at least a 2:1.

A friend of mine got a first and did Formula Student as team leader/chassis designer, he now works in Honda F1's wind tunnel R&D. I decided to aim for a 2:1 whilst working as tech director on the FS team and designing all the suspension and many other vehicle parts. The two of us plus others also did the US competition in between finals. i.e. I had an exam on a Saturday, flew to Detroit on the Sunday, returned the following Monday night for an exam on the Wednesday.

Through my final year I did approximately 20 hours per week on Uni work and at least 40 on Formula Student (including all nighters to make components) I also had a herniated L5 disc for half of this time! I now design MotoGP tyres and travel to all the races.

There is no substitute for commitment.

Ben

trikesrule · 12 Jan 2007, 11:49 (Ref:1813161)

Uummm commitment comes in many forms. Some of the best engineers are people that can visualize things. U know blow the problem up the size of a football field in ones mind. Sure you need the paper work to go with it today to get anywhere. So do what I do think Niki - visualize then just do it..........trikes

richardnewcombe · 12 Jan 2007, 16:03 (Ref:1813421)

Hey guys, cheers for the responses. Its quite interesting to meet someone who has actually judged the competition before also, odd turn of events!
As for me not putting in the time, I can do over the term, however I have 5 exams this month and right now getting a 2:1 is a (only just!) slightley higher priority than completeing the system design! I was just asking for tips and ideas to get me going so that when I hit it hard after finishing the exams I can get stuck in. Still I am very grateful for all the advice given,
Rich

Lee_Speakman · 24 Jan 2007, 11:56 (Ref:1824547)

Richard, why dont you just use the radiator of the bike? With the 20mm restrictor in place you shouldnt be making much more power than standard so It should be able to dissipate the heat eith good airflow and maybe fans.

We are using an 550 Aprillia V-Twin and it comes with two small radiators. Once for each sidepod

Smokey 6 litre · 24 Jan 2007, 14:36 (Ref:1824739)

DONT HELP HIM, a nottingham boy!!!

Up the Hertfordshire team!!!

only joking...

MikeHart · 25 Apr 2008, 14:45 (Ref:2186627)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee_Speakman

We are using an 550 Aprillia V-Twin and it comes with two small radiators. Once for each sidepod

Sounds familiar....:P I've got two RSV Mille rads for our R6. Nicely handed and very light (1.25kg each including fans).

I've been doing my FYP on the cooling this year and the biggest issue you'll find with most systems is poorly designed coolant lines. The pressure losses you can get through certain types of pipe geometry can be massive. Also.....I'm not convinced the mechanical pumps are up to much for our applications. The engine never hits max revs for long enough to shift enough water.

Notso Swift · 28 Apr 2008, 04:41 (Ref:2188811)

That is why they do not gear pumps for maximum revs, but you are right, there are better ways to do it than mechanical, electric will allow you to only use the exact amount of power to hold your optimum operating temperature, what ever that may be

MikeHart · 29 Apr 2008, 19:09 (Ref:2190447)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

That is why they do not gear pumps for maximum revs

Well it's not really geared for any particular revs. The relationship is linear and ranges from under 10l/min at around 2,000rpm to about 60l/min at 15,000. Seeing as we never hit 15,000 (max power on our car is at 11 something) then the thing hardly ever sees more than about 40l/min in the very best of situations. Most of the time it's knocking around 20 or lower....although I think half our trouble last year was that no one ever bled the system! LOL

inamo · 30 Apr 2008, 07:37 (Ref:2190834)

hadn't realised this was an old post.. have deleted my reply

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